Was the Dam Busters raid a success?

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Hi everyone , I hope this turns into a really great discussion . I am still very new to all these forum type discussions . I have been a Dam-busters enthusiast since I can remember ! And I certainly wished [ and still do ] that I could research the subject so much more . The raids success depends on a lot of issues combined overall . I can only relate to what is in the books that I have . I haven't got everything at hand at the moment but hopefully I can give a starting point . About 10 dams [ German ] were identified as strategic targets in the late 30's [ but with no way of damaging them by bombs ] When war broke out , Barnes Wallis [ an extraordinary aircraft designer ] was trying to think of ways to shorten the war [ and save lives ] . He came up with the idea of using a big bomb that would bury itself in the ground near the target and create an earthquake to shake the foundations of the building and cause total destruction of the target [ big bomb and use less aircraft / less aircraft use less aircrew ---- destroy the target in this way by not bombing huge areas and causing unnecessary casualties ] . Barnes then thought of targets and came up with the idea that --- dams [ breached ] would multiply the damage by flooding - as mentioned in some of the above posts [ factories , mines and agricultural ] . His bomb [ 10 ton ] was far too big for the aircraft in use at the time [ he designed one , but it could be not be put into production anytime soon ] . At some point his research , and official research tests combined , in that it was found that rather burying a big bomb at or near the dam , if the bomb was against the dam wall - only a small amount of explosive was needed to cause a massive failure of the structure with the water compressing the shock wave through the wall . So a much smaller bomb could be used . Of course torpedoes and the like were thought of to get the bomb against the wall but the dams had torpedo nets to stop them . He came up with the idea of skipping the bomb over the water to the dam wall and , of course as we all know now , was very successful at his ambition . I think as " Operation Chastise " was set in motion , the dam targets had now been set at 5 targets . The Mohene Dam [ a gravity dam ] was considered to be the most important - the Eder Dam [ gravity dam ] - the Sorpe Dam [ earth bank dam ] - the Lister Dam ? [ gravity dam ] - the Ennepe Dam [ gravity dam ] . If the Mohne and the Sorpe were breached the resulting flood would be an enormous catastrophe - as they both fed the Ruhr industries . But Barnes pointed out that his bomb wasn't very suitable for the Sorpe [ earth bank ] type of dam and doubted that the bomb would breach it . The Eder also fed into a transport canal as well , I believe , but was not connected to the Mohene and Sorpe system . Of these dams - the Mohene was breached - the Eder was breached - the Sorpe was damaged - the Lister was not attacked - the Ennepe is very controversial as it is believed by some present day people that the aircrew attacked the [ un-targeted ] Bever Dam . However the aircrew have always maintained they attacked the Ennepe dam on a certain compass heading - that would have been impossible at the Bever on the same heading . So 4 out of 5 dams were attacked with 2 breached and 1 damaged . In recent times there have been dam collapses that been catastrophes in their own right , requiring humanitarian , economic and infrastructure aid . Yet Germany lost 2 enormous dams in one night ! Germany had been stockpiling their war production for so many years before the war that they would have a huge stockpile , and thus could keep the momentum going for awhile . The manpower required to get the road and rail and the dams back into use [ as alluded to in the above posts ] was a huge drain on Germany's resources . The dams water levels were kept deliberately low and so , the list goes on and on . Barnes Wallis achieved what he envisioned -- and then achieved much , much more as his original idea of an earthquake bomb came into existence as a direct result of the operational use the dam bomb [ " upkeep " ] His earthquake bombs " Tallboy " [ 6 ton ] and " Grand Slam " [ 10 ? or 12 ? ton ] were the final successes of Barnes original vision of shortening the war and saving lives . There is of course so much more to the story and hopefully I have helped by giving a bit more information as a starting point for NTGray and everyone else . Sorry for a long winded post !
 
I mentioned the Lister Dam in my post above -- but I may have mixed the name up -- it could have been the Diemel Dam . I will also have to check the proper weight of the " Tallboy " and " Grand Slam " bombs [ even though these 2 bombs are bit off the subject matter ] .
 
Nick Beale said:
It was not a polite term in the Britain of 1955 (back then that would have been "negro"). You wouldn't call a person it but nor was it yet treated as a word so powerful that it must not be uttered or written. It didn't stop the film becoming a TV staple, repeated over many years on Sunday afternoons, with no warnings from the announcer about "discriminatory language" or "reflecting attitudes of the time"
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According to numerous sources, British theaters in 1955 had no issues with showing the movie as made, but American theaters censored it (dubbing in the name "Trigger"), as did the TV broadcasters at the time (Though Turner Classic Movies would later show it as made).
 
wozza said:
I mentioned the Lister Dam in my post above -- but I may have mixed the name up -- it could have been the Diemel Dam . I will also have to check the proper weight of the " Tallboy " and " Grand Slam " bombs [ even though these 2 bombs are bit off the subject matter ] .
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Per 1946 Ordnance Manual total weight / approx charge to weight ratio
Tallboy - 11,885lb / 45%
Grand Slam - 22,400lb / 42%
 
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EDER DAM, E. 1679 - Chief, Orpo., 16/17 MAY. This was a low level attack carried out by 3 aircraft which dropped 3 H.E. The resulting damage was 75 metres wide and 20 metres deep. The flow of water through the gap was 2000 cubic metres per second. Electric power from the power station on the Losse was only partially maintained. Trams in Kassel were stopped. By 18 May the water level in Kassel was almost normal. Road traffic was only slightly interrupted. Water supply by 18 May had risen from 50% to 83%. Except for the out for trams and the firm of Henschel (for the latter only for a few hours) the electricity supply was maintained. About 1900 were rendered homeless in Kassel town area.

In Fritzlar water, light and telephone services were interrupted. In the surrounding districts of Fritzlar

3 road and 2 railway bridges were destroyed. Water supply was still interrupted on 19 May. Dorf Affoldern in the Waldeck area was seriously affected. 12 corpses were found. The total stock of food and fodder was destroyed. There were 31 dead in the Wa1deck area. The railway line Kassel- Marburg - Frankfurt/Main was cut by the collapse of the Eder Bridge and damage to the railway embankment between Grifte and Wabern. Long distance traffic was diverted and local traffic maintained by bus shuttle service. Total area inundated was about 8500 hectares.

Damage to Buildings:

Kreis Waldeck:
Houses: 42 destroyed, 32 severely damaged, 39 slightly damaged.
Businesses: 60 destroyed, 26 severely damaged, 16 slightly damaged.
Public Buildings: 2 destroyed, 2 severely damaged.

Fritzlar-Homberg;
Houses: 9 destroyed, 9 severely damaged, 79 medium damage, 25 slightly damaged.
Businesses: 2 destroyed, 23 severely damaged, 10 medium damage, 5 slight damaged.

Kreis Melsungen:
Houses: 5 destroyed, 11 severely damaged, 50 medium damage, 264 slightly damaged.
Businesses: 17 destroyed, 7 severely damaged, 24 medium damage, 59 slightly damaged.
Public Buildings: 1 each destroyed, severely damaged, medium damage and slightly damaged.

Landkreis Kassel:
Houses: 1 severely damaged, 29 medium damage, 50 slightly damaged.
Businesses: 1 medium damage, 4 slightly damaged.

Kassel Town:
Houses: 2 destroyed, 63 severely damaged, 193 medium damage, 539 slightly damaged.
Businesses: 1 destroyed, 4 severely damaged, 15 medium damage, 25 slightly damaged.
Public Buildings: 6 medium damage, 2 slightly damaged.

Kreis Hofgeismar:
Houses: 5 severely damaged, 113 medium damage, 233 slightly damaged,
Businesses: 6 destroyed, 40 slightly damaged.
Public Buildings: 5 slightly damaged

Damage to Bridges:
Destroyed: 4 railway, 7 road, 8 wooden.
Severely damaged: 1 railway, 4 road.
Slightly damaged: 1 road.

Loss of Animals etc.: 65 horses, 658 heads cattle, 878 pigs, 475 sheep, 260 goats, 8062 small animals (chickens etc.), 201 swarms of bees.

Casualties (Deaths): Kreis Waldeck: 31, Kreis Fritzlar-Homberg: 16 (incl. 3 foreigners), Kreis Melsungen: 3, Kassel Town: 2, Total 52.
 
NTGray said:
According to numerous sources, British theaters in 1955 had no issues with showing the movie as made, but American theaters censored it (dubbing in the name "Trigger"), as did the TV broadcasters at the time (Though Turner Classic Movies would later show it as made).
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It certainly didn't bother the BBC for a very long time but I haven't watched it on TV recently as I have the dvd. (I did once see the film announced as "coming up later" on TV in a Berlin hotel, don't know how they handled the dog's name, though).
 
PAT303 said:
I feel a lot of the success of the attack as phycological like the Doolittle raid, it showed the axis powers that nowhere is safe from attack regardless of the losses to men and machines, for the Germans it was their first experience of the special weapons and specialist crews they would have to deal with in the coming years.
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Don't forget the January 30th, 1943 Mosquito raid that interrupted Goebbels' radio broadcast. Not sure which operation should be considered the first nasty surprise for the Germans during WW2, there were several. The story of the decoy German airfield attacked by the wooden bomb also comes to mind...
 
The movie was played here in Australia back on ANZAC day [ April 25th ] . It is usually played around this time each year and has a disclaimer at the start and finish of the movie -- saying that the movie contains material that may not be in line with today's attitudes . Thanks to Geoffrey Sinclair and EwenS for the figures ---- that shows a lot of damage from the Eder Dam alone .
 
Nick Beale said:
It was not a polite term in the Britain of 1955 (back then that would have been "negro"). You wouldn't call a person it but nor was it yet treated as a word so powerful that it must not be uttered or written. It didn't stop the film becoming a TV staple, repeated over many years on Sunday afternoons, with no warnings from the announcer about "discriminatory language" or "reflecting attitudes of the time". What soldiers, sailors and airmen really couldn't do in films back then was swear beyond the occasional (and strictly rationed by the British Board of Film Censors) "bloody".

All that aside, it's a terrific film (I was lucky enough to see the restored version in the cinema and the flying sequences were incredible) even if not entirely accurate. The actual results of the raid are much better understood now than when Paul Brickhill wrote his book, of course.
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Yes, it's a shame that probably another Dambusters will never be made because of the Dog's name.

Bomber command like UK forces was multi racially integrated.

I don't think GG was a racist: the dog was just jet black.
 
gruad said:
Yes, it's a shame that probably another Dambusters will never be made because of the Dog's name.

Bomber command like UK forces was multi racially integrated.

I don't think GG was a racist: the dog was just jet black.
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Considering the general level of inaccuracy in war movies, changing the dog's name is completely insignificant. Hollywood would replace Barnes Wallis by a farmboy from West Overshoe, Wyoming and GG by a brash American expat
 
Escuadrilla Azul said:
Peter Jackson wants to make a movie about the Dambusters, he said in Cannes film festival (besides a new Tintín movie).

Any thoughts?
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My master genius idea is to combine these projects. And after all, as we saw in the previous Tintin movie, Tintin can fly a plane.

And as Peter Jackson has experience with all these Lord of the rings universe movies, let's bring that in too. The fellowship of the ring can be the crew of the Lancasters (apart from Tintin who is the pilot, as described above), and Saruman and the orcs can play the Germans.

Success is all but guaranteed with this script. Hey Peter, just deposit the money in my bank account. Thanks.
 
z42 said:
My master genius idea is to combine these projects. And after all, as we saw in the previous Tintin movie, Tintin can fly a plane.

And as Peter Jackson has experience with all these Lord of the rings universe movies, let's bring that in too. The fellowship of the ring can be the crew of the Lancasters (apart from Tintin who is the pilot, as described above), and Saruman and the orcs can play the Germans.

Success is all but guaranteed with this script. Hey Peter, just deposit the money in my bank account. Thanks.
Click to expand...
He can fly a lunar rocket.
 
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