Was the luftwaffe really apolitical or not? Does a "clean luftwaffe" thing exist?

[GrauGeist]

And my apologies if that comes across as rude. It was a bit harsh, and I will tone it down. Any member on this forum who woukd have done that, is no longer here. It really was an uncalled for comment.

No, you're justified in that statement as things are getting a bit weird.
When I read the alleged "statement" about a U-Boat surfacing in broad daylight, which would needlessly expose it's position, just to machinegun a f**cking sailboat and then tossing handgrenades at survivors, I lost interest in a factual and legitimate discussion.
Anyone else feels the need to perpetuate the discussion, please carry on, but I'm out of this steaming pile of bullsh!t.

 

[parsifal]

Which thankfully was shown to be no defence for the defendants at Nuremberg. Certain laws that run counter to the inalienable basic human rights make such practices illegal at the outset. The laws of war are older than germany itself (not that this matters).. hitler, despite his supreme power, never abrogated Germany's responsibilities and obligations under either the hague convention or Geneva. ergo, notwithstanding his supreme control of the apparatus of government, he maintained the obligations of his soldiers and his people to these international responsibilities. On this, alone, his lieutenants could be successfully indicted (though additional reasons were also accepted in the demolition of the fuhrer prinzip defence) . they had acted illegally with respect to laws their erstwhile leader had never abandoned. Those international treaty obligations overulled the national level laws enacted by Hitler

Under cross examination from Robert Jackson, Goering in 1945 admitted this

Against the Japanese, who never ratified the Geneva convention a different approach was taken, but that is another story for another time perhaps.

In his summing up before the trial justices at Nuremberg Robert Jackson made the following comments

"The catalogue of crimes will omit nothing that could be conceived by a pathological pride, cruelty, and lust for power. These men created in Germany, under the Fuehrerprinzip, a National Socialist despotism equaled only by the dynasties of the ancient East. They took from the German people all those dignities and freedoms that we hold natural and inalienable rights in every human being. The people were compensated by inflaming and gratifying hatreds toward those who were marked as "scape-goats." Against their opponents, including Jews, Catholics, and free labor the Nazis directed such a campaign of arrogance, brutality, and annihilation as the world has not witnessed since the pre-Christian ages. They excited the German ambition to be a "master race," which of course implies serfdom for others. They led their people on a mad amble for domination. They diverted social energies and resources to the creation of what they thought to be an invincible war machine. They overran their neighbors. To sustain the"master race " in its war making, they enslaved millions of human beings and brought them into Germany, where these hapless creatures. now wander as "displaced persons". At length bestiality and bad faith reached such excess that they aroused the sleeping strength of imperiled civilization. Its united efforts have ground the German war machine to fragments. But the struggle has left Europe a liberated yet prostrate land where a demoralized society struggles to survive...The most savage and numerous crimes planned and committed by the Nazis were those against the Jews. These in Germany, in 1933, numbered about 500,000. In the aggregate, they had made for themselves positions which excited envy, and had accumulated properties which excited the avarice of the Nazis. They were few enough to be helpless and numerous enough to be held up as a menace...
What we charge against these defendants is not those arrogances and pretensions which frequently accompany the intermingling of different peoples and which are likely despite the honest courts of government, to produce regrettable crimes and convulsions. It is my purpose to show a plan and design, to which all Nazis were fanatically committed, to annihilate all Jewish people."

Quite lengthy legal argument was then presented to the IMT judges from both the prosecution and the defence about this "Fuhrer Principle" as it had been used (or rather implied....it was never specifically mentioned in any of the defence arguments....just that they were "following orders") resulting in the IMT rejecting the defence as "without power". That the whole world across the entire political spectrum at the time would unanimously reject such spurious argument as being powerless is one of those truly amazing and awe inspiring moments in history.

The judges were right in thir findings on this issue

 

[parsifal]

I suggest this thread get back to its original topic. For that reason, anyone who wants to continue the conversation, can send me a personal message.

This debate has gone on for too long in the public forum .

 

[Dimlee]

For a man so closely in contact and in control of his command, how on earth could he have not been aware of such allegedly independent and unauthorised and unlawful acts, that would normally be punishable by a court martial or at least some clarification of his true meaning of the orders that he gave . I think the only plausible explanation was that his men were doing exactly what he had intended by those orders

As a former seaman (merchant one but with training and some experience in Navy) - I'm not sure about this argument...
Ship's crew can keep many secrets - if the Captain/Commander is strong leader. What happens at sea, stays at sea, so to say. Even in the Soviet Navy where you have the political officer as a spy de-jure and one or two "volunteers" secretly recruited by NKVD/KGB, not each and every incident was reported to osobyi otdel.
And then there is oversight issue. Shore office learns about illegal incident but decides to sweep it all under the carpet. Does it make the one in high command a criminal?
Example from the other side: Soviet submarines sank neutral ships in numbers, until 1943 at least. Can we call narkom (CiC) Admiral Kuznetsov a war criminal just using the argument "he could not have been aware"?

P.S. Didn't notice earlier comment of Parsifal...

 

[Peter Gunn]

I suggest this thread get back to its original topic. For that reason, anyone who wants to continue the conversation, can send me a personal message.

This debate has gone on for too long in the public forum .

I tell ya, between you and drgondog I get a lot of reading done here.

The Nuremberg trials have always held interest for me, I like you take on them and pretty much agree, I'd go through and give you a bunch of green check marks but frankly I'm a bit lazy this morning and have the makings of a dandy of a migraine coming on.

I would only argue/disagree (not here) that Lee was EQUAL TO Grant (maybe) and POSSIBLY better than Sherman, but that's not the discussion here, just my 2 cents.

Cheers.

 

[swampyankee]

I tell ya, between you and drgondog I get a lot of reading done here. The Nuremberg trials have always held interest for me, I like you take on them.

Also, I would argue (not here) that Lee was EQUAL TO Grant (maybe) and POSSIBLY better than Sherman, but that's not the discussion here, just my 2 cents.

Cheers.

I'm going to ignore the second item for now, but there are reports ( Churchill 'opposed Nuremberg and wanted Nazi leaders executed or jailed without trial' | Daily Mail Online andThe Trials of The Nuremberg Trials, among others) that some Allied leaders wanted summary execution of nazi leaders, not trials.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I'm going to ignore the second item for now, but there are reports ( Churchill 'opposed Nuremberg and wanted Nazi leaders executed or jailed without trial' | Daily Mail Online andThe Trials of The Nuremberg Trials, among others) that some Allied leaders wanted summary execution of nazi leaders, not trials.

Speaking from emotion, some of them deserved that. However, regardless of what one thinks of the trials, it was the right thing to do, and was the only way for a functioning and just German society to emerge. I'm a firm believer that the moral country you see today, is directly attributed to the way post war Germany was handled.

 

[michaelmaltby]

I agree that the Trials were appropriate ... and perhaps more should have been found guilty and executed ... but the outcome of the process was not necessarily what has been described above "... the moral country you see today, is directly attributed to the way post war Germany was handled."
I recently bought and viewed the German Television three-part historical drama "Generation War" .. it is intended to reflect the moral German society of today looking back over 1941 to 1945. The series is acclaimed as German's Band of Brothers ... but IMO, it is scarcely that. More apt would be Band of Victims.
The collective message of the epic is that the German people were all victims of the Hitler's war (except for a few who were degenerate sociopaths). While I don't doubt that to be true, victimhood is NOT a moral position. Victims could not have achieved the remarkable results that the German people achieved ... nor could evictims have concocted the horrors of Germany's racial policies that the Nazis engineered and the German people ignored.

IMO. the prize for successful post-war re-alignment goes to Japan ... and they have the Korea War to partially thank for that.

 

[swampyankee]

I agree that the Trials were appropriate ... and perhaps more should have been found guilty and executed ... but the outcome of the process was not necessarily what has been described above "... the moral country you see today, is directly attributed to the way post war Germany was handled."
I recently bought and viewed the German Television three-part historical drama "Generation War" .. it is intended to reflect the moral German society of today looking back over 1941 to 1945. The series is acclaimed as German's Band of Brothers ... but IMO, it is scarcely that. More apt would be Band of Victims.
The collective message of the epic is that the German people were all victims of the Hitler's war (except for a few who were degenerate sociopaths). While I don't doubt that to be true, victimhood is NOT a moral position. Victims could not have achieved the remarkable results that the German people achieved ... nor could evictims have concocted the horrors of Germany's racial policies that the Nazis engineered and the German people ignored.

IMO. the prize for successful post-war re-alignment goes to Japan ... and they have the Korea War to partially thank for that.

Although Germany, most emphatically not Japan, has acknowledged their collective responsibility for war crimes; Japan, especially Japanese nationalists have threatened and possibly killed Japanese writers who dared to mention Japanese war crimes.

 

[michaelmaltby]

... Japanese nationalists are hardly the moral compass that Japan follows.

 

[swampyankee]

... Japanese nationalists are hardly the moral compass that Japan follows.

True, but they are influential enough so Japanese war crimes, such as Unit 731 or the Rape of Nanking, were either omitted or misrepresented in Japanese histories of WWII, especially text books. Of course denial of war crimes is one of the foundations of the Nippon Kaigi party today.

 

[michaelmaltby]

Cite whatever evidence you like, I remain fast in my view that Japan, post-atomization, reassembled itself, embracing defeat. The mind-set worked .... it worked for the community of nations and it worked for Japan.

With a rising China the free world needs Japan ... and Japan is stepping up! G*d knows, we need them to.

I contrast Japan with Germany ... the 'moral' compass of Europe ... the Germans depend on Russia for gas but refuse to tap their own ... they try and undo world opinion of themselves by non-selectively admitting millions of culturally foreign immigrants who do not fit in and do not want to fit in. Germany, whose soldiers in Af'stan were, I am told, too fat to fight. I would wish Germany ready to step up, like Japan, but political correctness has taken root.

In time, Japanese culture will make of Japanese WW2 excesses and atrocities what it will ... but Japanese culture WILL acknowledge their existence. Words don't mean much in the larger picture over time.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

So much completely wrong with your post. I will refrain from answering further for several reasons...

 

[michaelmaltby]

.... you're both correct but can't say why ..? Some compass.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

.... you're both correct but can't say why ..? Some compass.

I cannot say why because it dabbles into the world of modern politics, which despite the forum rules (which you are fricken more than aware of) not allowing it you are so clearly trying to dabble in.

And if I do respond, I have a feeling that feelings might get butt hurt (and it won't be mine). Understand? But you can continue to show a fundamental lack of understanding of the cultures for all I care, especially when they are built off of clearly slanted sources of information.

Nothing more to say on the topic, as I will try and remain impartial as a moderator. Over out...

 

[michael rauls]

When it comes to the topic of which nation has come to the table more when it comes to acknowledging atrocities Japan or Germany I think it's important to remember that the nations in question are comprised of individuals.
Both in the committing of the offenses and in acknowledgement and atoning for them.
I don't mean to suggest moral equivalence of all regimes only that even under the worst ones there were people that didn't go along with what was going on and some even gave there lives to resist it.
Just something I think is important to remember. Not that generalizations arent valid on a macro level and to a large degree nescesary in wartime but ultimately it is individuals not societies that bear the guilt of wrongs and it is individuals who will decide how to percive and acknowledge there societies wrong doing.
I just get a little uneasy with the concept of collective guilt or collective judgment of how individuals within a society deal with that societies wrongs.
My 2 cents anyway.

 

[taly01]

War is a great cover for psychopaths and criminals. The retributions and looting and raping that the "liberators" and "resistance" inflicted on France and Italy during 1944 were the most surprising "keep quiet about" war crimes to me, especially since they spiralled to include civilians with no regime or collaborator involvement.

the German Television three-part historical drama "Generation War" ........The collective message of the epic is that the German people were all victims of the Hitler's war.. While I don't doubt that to be true,.... victimhood is NOT a moral position.

I can hardly recall any war movie that has a description of why the war is happening and why they are fighting, the characters are usually shown as clueless drifters. That been said the modern German depiction of their war experience is like a political re-education camp (and about as interesting and believable).

 

[GrauGeist]

War is a great cover for psychopaths and criminals. The retributions and looting and raping that the "liberators" and "resistance" inflicted on France and Italy during 1944 were the most surprising "keep quiet about" war crimes to me, especially since they spiralled to include civilians with no regime or collaborator involvement...

The Red Army's advance on Germany is a real eye opener.
The Balkans, especially Yugoslavia was a real hotbed of rape, death and pillage for the duration.
Needless to say, the CBI/PTO saw it's share of rape, death and pillage.
I have to say that France/Italy has to take a backseat to the aforementioned...

 

[pinehilljoe]

I'm sure the Luftwaffe had it share of both recruits just waiting for the war to end one way or another, and die hard Nazis. Rudel's Stuka Pilot is the perspective of the later.

 

[michaelmaltby]

All fair comment ... but answer me this if you will please. Nearly all of the photos ... happy snaps (taken with a Leica possibly) of German servicemen taken well into the last year of the war ... East Prussia, Courland ... capture the faces of young men who are proud of themselves and their comrades in their group/regiment.
They aren't VICTIMS, they are soldiers at war. Well trained, well armed, and (at the front) well led. They couldn't have been otherwise to inflict the amount of destruction that they inflicted on the Soviets ... Soviet casualties [ed. casualty rate] in 1945 was higher than in 1941.
To cast Germans as soulless victims does not jibe with the mountains of evidence that documents the opposite picture.
NOTHING excuses the Nazi-racial-mindset.
But recasting society to comply with comfortable platitudes is a dangerous path, IMO.