A.G. Williams
Airman 1st Class
- 182
- Oct 10, 2020
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See pages 598 through 601 in AHT.I call bullshit. Prove that those numbers are fake.
HiYes, the specification calls for armor and protected tanks. However, F4F-3s were delivered without them. The F4F-3s issued to VMF 211 just prior to their deployment to Wake Island, late production serials, had neither. They did have bulletproof windscreens installed. It is my belief that the armor was not installed due to peacetime desires to reduce fuel consumption. USN aircraft were scrambling to get armor installed in fleet based aircraft into early 1942.
And this peacetime thinking was evident in RAF squadrons in the Far East, where 67 Squadron, to their cost, still hadn't installed the armor in their Buffalos two full weeks after the Japanese launched their offensive.
Bloody Shambles, Volume 1, page 250, regarding the combat over Rangoon, 25 December, 1941.Hi
As far as I can see from photographs of RAF (RAAF, RNZAF) Buffalos in the Far East they were fitted with armoured windscreens (internally fitted). Also mentions about armour appear to stress the weight of it affecting its performance. In addition when two Buffalos were converted for PR work, Sgt. Charlie Wareham (formally of 243 Sqn. and then 4 PRU) mentions that:
"All the guns were taken out of my aircraft - and all the armour plating from around the petrol tanks and around the wings, so as to make the aircraft lighter."
All these British ordered Buffalos were delivered direct from the USA, so presumably the armour was fitted at the factory, unless the MU in the Far East had the awkward job of retro-fitting it from stocks (from where?). (info 'Bloody Shambles' Volume One). Some sources state the Buffalo had an armoured seat, if so that must have been a factory fit.
Mike
Only Brandt's and Sharp's aircraft had been fitted with armor at this point. 67 Squadron lost four aircraft on this date.Brandt and Sharp had been particularly lucky. Generally the Buffaloes were not fitted with any armor at this stage, although supplies had arrived and were to be installed as soon as ground crews had an opportunity to do the work.
See pages 598 through 601 in AHT.
The US was putting out numbers based on a formula developed by Louis Breguet.
Range was computed starting in mid air, ending in mid air and using all internal fuel.
Speed varies but is computed for best lift to drag ratio as the plane changes weight.
All propellers are assumed to operate at 0.80&% efficiency.
All planes are assumed to have the same wing span efficiency factors = 0.85
All aircraft are assumed to make have a fuel consumption of 0.5 lb/hp/hr
and a few more details. What numbers like this show is that while cruising plane A may have a "range" about 40% higher than plane B. Plane A being a P-47D with 370 gal and plane B being a P-40E with 147 gallons.
They are good for relative ranking but aren't close to actual ranges.
And then we have;
were they give a range of 940 miles but list an average speed of 150mph and an altitude of 2500ft.
If you divide the speed into the distance that gives you 6.26 hours of flight and if you divide the hours of flight into the fuel capacity you get an average consumption of 23 gph.
Yes some other sources give 845 miles as range for the F4F-3.
But they don't give either speed or altitude.
I have an old book that gives 3 different range cruising speeds for the 109E-3. 202mph at 1000 meters, 210mph at 2000 meters and 233mph at 7000 meters ( I converted the feet to meters to make it easier to type) However it gives a maximum range of 410 miles without giving either speed or altitude which really makes it hard to compare.
And also remember that most IJA and IJN planes that had phenomenal range tended to get that range at very low speeds. Even the late war Ki-84 got a range of 1000+ miles on internal fuel, but that was at like 220 mph. That's a low cruising speed compared to like a Merlin powered P-51, which was typically up around 320-360 mph (or whatever the bombers were flying at).
I think your going to have a hard time keeping up let alone intercepting a B 24 in a Wildcat if it doesn't want to get caught.B-17s and B-24s did not cruise at 320-360 mph. They couldn't even go that fast in most cases. Cruise speed was more like half that.
Hi
As far as I can see from photographs of RAF (RAAF, RNZAF) Buffalos in the Far East they were fitted with armoured windscreens (internally fitted). Also mentions about armour appear to stress the weight of it affecting its performance. In addition when two Buffalos were converted for PR work, Sgt. Charlie Wareham (formally of 243 Sqn. and then 4 PRU) mentions that:
"All the guns were taken out of my aircraft - and all the armour plating from around the petrol tanks and around the wings, so as to make the aircraft lighter."
All these British ordered Buffalos were delivered direct from the USA, so presumably the armour was fitted at the factory, unless the MU in the Far East had the awkward job of retro-fitting it from stocks (from where?). (info 'Bloody Shambles' Volume One). Some sources state the Buffalo had an armoured seat, if so that must have been a factory fit.
Mike
OK try to actually fly an F4F the range they give on that data sheet.Saying it [is] hard to compare with other methods of evaluating range is plausible, and also a far cry from saying the USN range estimate is 'fake'
I think your going to have a hard time keeping up let alone intercepting a B 24 in a Wildcat if it doesn't want to get caught.
And I pointed out that P-51s escorting 8th AF bombers were not cruising at 320-360 mph. More like half that. Because that's how fast those bombers flew on most of those bombing raids into Germany.
Loading Condition | Unit | Fighter | Fighter | Fighter | Bomber | Ferry |
Gross Weight | Pounds | 7,556 | 7,556 | 8,361 | 7,809 | 7,350 |
Empty Weight | Pounds | 5,381 | 5,381 | 5,381 | 5,381 | 5,228 |
Fuel | Gallons | 144 | 144 | 260 | 144 | 260 |
Fixed Guns | number x calibre | 4 x 0.50 inch | 4 x 0.50 inch | 4 x 0.50 inch | 4 x 0.50 inch | None |
Fixed Guns Ammunition | Rounds | 1,800 | 1,800 | 1,800 | 1,800 | None |
Bomb load | No. x Pounds | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 x 100 | 0 |
Drop Tanks | No. x Gallons | 0 | 0 | 2 x 58 | 0 | 2 x 58 |
Engine Rating | For Performance | Military | Normal | Normal | Normal | Normal |
Wing Loading | Pounds/sq. feet | 29.1 | 29.1 | 32.2 | 30 | 28.3 |
Power Loading (BHP, Crit. Alt.) | Pounds/BHP | 7.6 | 7.6 | 8.4 | 7.8 | 7.4 |
VM Sea Level | MPH | 290 | 280 | 258 | 272 | 260 |
VM | MPH/Feet | 295/1,800 | 288/2,500 | 264/2,500 | 288/2,500 | 266/2,500 |
VM | MPH/Feet | 294/3,100 | 287/4,200 | |||
VM | MPH/Feet | 316/11,500 | 310/12,000 | 283/12,000 | 298/12,000 | 285/12,000 |
VM | MPH/Feet | 311/15,100 | 307/13,300 | |||
VM | MPH/Feet | 323/19,000 | 323/19,000 | 295/19,000 | 312/19,000 | 298/19,000 |
VM (Critical Altitude) | MPH/Feet | 329/21,100 | 329/21,100 | 297/19,500 | 319/21,100 | 300/19,500 |
VG - Gross Weight, no power | MPH | 79.1 | 79.1 | 85.5 | 80.4 | 77.9 |
VG - Less Fuel, no power | MPH | 74.4 | 74.4 | 77.1 | 75.8 | 69.1 |
Time to 10,000 feet | Minutes | 4.6 | 4.9 | 6.7 | 5.3 | 5.6 |
Time to 20,000 feet | Minutes | 10.3 | 10.6 | 16.3 | 11.5 | 12.6 |
Service Ceiling | Feet | 36,400 | 36,400 | 30,200 | 35,900 | 32,300 |
Take off - Calm - Land | Feet | n/a | 550 | 736 | 612 | 530 |
Take off - 15 knots - Land | Feet | n/a | 350 | 480 | 393 | 330 |
Take off - 25 knots - Land | Feet | n/a | 234 | 330 | 265 | 223 |
Climb Sea Level | Feet/Minute | 2,450 | 2,460 | 1,810 | 2,350 | 2,220 |
Endurance - 60% VM | Hours | n/a | 4.9 | 8.4 | 4.7 | 9.6 |
Endurance - 60% VM | Feet | n/a | 19,000 | 19,000 | 19,000 | 19,000 |
Endurance - 75% VM | Hours | n/a | 3.3 | 6 | 3.3 | 6.6 |
Endurance - 75% VM | Feet | n/a | 19,000 | 19,000 | 19,000 | 19,000 |
Endurance - VM | Hours | n/a | 1 | 1.8 | 1 | 1.8 |
Endurance - VM | Feet | n/a | 19,000 | 19,000 | 19,000 | 19,000 |
Max Range | Statute Miles | n/a | 940 | 1,420 | 880 | 1,635 |
Max Range Average Speed | MPH | n/a | 150 | 151 | 150 | 137 |
Max Range Altitude | Feet | n/a | 2,500 | 2,500 | 2,500 | 2,500 |
Normal Condition | |
Weight (pounds) | 6,835 |
Take Off (Over 50 ft) (Yards) | 520 |
Landing (Over 50 ft) (Yards) | 550 |
Service Ceiling (Feet) | 32,000 |
Maximum Speed (m.p.h) | 310 |
Max Speed Height (Feet) | 14,500 |
Cruising Speed (m.p.h) | 257 |
Cruise Speed Height | 15,000 |
50 Minutes allowance Range (miles) | 690 |
50 Minutes allowance Endurance Hours | 2.7 |
Fuel (for range, gallons) | 107 |
Fuel (for allowance, gallons) | 29 |
Fuel (Total, gallons) | 136 |
Extended condition | |
Overload Weight pounds | 7,000 |
Cruise Speed (m.p.h) | 245 |
Height (feet) | 15,000 |
Bomb Load (pounds) | 330 |
Range (50 mins allow.) (miles) | 670 |
Endurance (50 mins allow.) Hrs | 2.75 |
Fuel (for range, gallons) | 107 |
Fuel (for allowance, gallons) | 29 |
Fuel (Total, gallons) | 136 |
Extended condition economical | |
Cruise Speed (m.p.h) | 165-175 |
Height (feet) | 15,000 |
Range (50 mins allow.) (miles) | 845 |
Endurance (50 mins allow.) Hrs | 5 |
Fuel (for range, gallons) | 107 |
Fuel (for allowance, gallons) | 29 |
Fuel (Total, gallons) | 136 |
Blenheim, Defiant and Bf 110?The three fighters that fought the BoB were the best three for the job, nothing else in 1940 was better.
The Gladiator gets no respect.Blenheim, Defiant and Bf 110?
I'm kidding
Might have been some old Gauntlets and Fury's still kicking around tooThe Gladiator gets no respect.