Were spade grip control columns fitted to Allison-engined RAF Mustangs?

[ColFord]

Given that the modelling of RAF specification Mustang Is is the direction the thread has now headed, it overlaps with recent online discussions I have been having on that subject over on Hyperscale.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/p-51-mustang-conversion-t554112.html

Short version, to build a 1/48th scale model of a RAF Mustang I, your BEST starting point is in order: the AM RAF Mustang IA,or USAAF F-6A kits. Combined with the Ultracast resin Mustang I conversion (and maybe a few of the other Allison Mustang specific detailing items eg exhausts, early seat, wheels). Those two kits include the parts for a fairly basic oblique camera installation and the clear quarter window with the cutout moulded in. The basic AM USAAF P-51 and Academy re-pop of that kit don't include the camera parts sprue or the window - you have to create your own and carefully drill out a suitable sized and shaped opening in the supplied quarter window.

The AM A-36A and P-51A kits are NOT suitable for conversion to a RAF Mustang I. Both kits feature the later much broader carburettor air intake above the nose and the later style 'fixed' radiator intake under the fuselage and a range of other smaller and larger detail features that would need to be deleted or changed during the build process if converting to a RAF Mustang I.

As mentioned in the Hyperscale thread,there is a mixed media - injected plastic and resin - kit done by HalberdModels - but it is only representative of a RAF Mustang I from the initial 20 built, but still misses some key detail features or goes with what was provided in other kits. For example, they repeat the vague radio and battery fit of the AM Allison Mustang kits, which is based off a USAAF style installation, not the RAF ealy Mustang installation. And it is $$$$$!

Currently there is no 'out of the box' mainstream, up to date and accurate models produced in 1/48th scale of a RAF specification Mustang I of either NA-73 Mustang I (Series I) or NA-83 Mustang I (Series II), or realistically the NA-91 P-51 Mustang IA. A couple of model manufacturing companies have shown interest in producing accurate, detailed and current state of the art models in 1/48th scale of the Allison engine Mustangs, but timeframe for any potential release keeps slipping back. DBMK Models have announced earlier this year a 1/32nd scale series of Allison engine Mustangs, covering all the major variants and users - rough timing there for the first release 12-24 months.

 

[ColFord]

Note that the Accurate Miniatures A-36A has the cowl mounted guns and that lower cowl insert should fit the Mk IA as well, if you can find one. Attached is is my favorite picture of a Mk IA.

Aircraft pictured is a NA-83 Mustang I (Series II) with No.26 Squadron RAF in early 1945.

The NA-91 P-51 Mustang IA was the variant with the 4 x 20mm Hispano cannon armament.

Problem with using the nose moulding off the AM A-36A kit if trying to model a Mustang I, is that includes the later, much broader carburettor air intake on top of the cowling, which is incorrect for a Mustang I. There is not enough plastic cast in the sides of that piece to file it down to the thinner profile. - which then leaves you with the rest of the A-36A kit differences to tackle, or redundant if you were to combine with an AM-Mustang IA or P-51 kit. Ultracast resin conversion set is a better 'donor' source for the required modification parts for a Mustang I.

 

[MIflyer]

Problem with using the nose moulding off the AM A-36A kit if trying to model a Mustang I, is that includes the later, much broader carburettor air intake on top of the cowling,

I'd have to dig out one of my A-36's, P-51A, or the one P51-1 kit I think I have to be sure, but I suspect that AM used the same top scoop on all of them.

 

[ColFord]

I'd have to dig out one of my A-36's, P-51A, or the one P51-1 kit I think I have to be sure, but I suspect that AM used the same top scoop on all of them.

The original release AM P-51, RAF Mustang IA, USAAF F-6A and Academy re-pop of the P-51 should all have the narrow carburettor intake on the top cowling moulded parts.

Similarly, the original release AM A-36A and P-51A releases should have variants of the moulding with two different versions of the wider, broader top air filter. (Side story there, I was in discussion with AM way back when about these kits and the matter of the historically correct name for the A-36A came up, they knew back then it was properly named Mustang, but because most of the books around at the time had the incorrect Apache name attached to the type, they went with the 'popular' rather than 'factually and historically correct'.)

BUT, in some of the 2nd generation AM re-releases, there have been reported instances of the wrong nose moulding being put in the box (case in point a couple of modellers on Britmodeller who have examples of some of the AM 2nd release and 'clearance' release mouldings, which seem to have a bit of a issue with consistency of what parts were put in what boxes eg P-51 nose in an A-36A box and vice versa, plus a camera sprue not included in some.)

These are the four NA-91 P-51 Mustang / Mustang IA / F-6A releases:

The basic P-51 and RAF Mustang IA boxings had from what I've tracked three releases - original, 2nd release, then the 'clearance' release, which also included them supplying mouldings to a couple of stores such as Squadron just before they went out of business. Essentially last release was clearing what stocks of moulded parts, decals, etc they had left.

I've already built 15 of the AM P-51 kit in its various guises, some using the Ultracast Mustang I conversion to build a Mustang I and four of the P-51A as Mustang IIs, and so far one A-36A.

I have a few more of the AM kits in the stash to build.

And with plenty of aftermarket bits - mainly Ultracast - to help enhance them a bit.

Still waiting for the 1/48th scale kit manufacturers to "get their fingers out" on the new kits.

 

[fubar57]

I have the Ultracast set that will probably never get used

 

[MIflyer]

A place in Miami was selling AM P-51A kits by the case at one time and I bought a dozen at about $5.50 each. Also bought four A-36A and I think one P-51-1. Have not built any of them yet. A certain full sized 1940's aircraft takes up most of my time of late.

The P-51A maintenance manual shows the later more sophisticated top scoop. The requirements for an aircraft to operate just within the CONUS was beyond that which the RAF thought acceptable.

 

[SaparotRob]

A place in Miami was selling AM P-51A kits by the case at one time and I bought a dozen at about $5.50 each. Also bought four A-36A and I think one P-51-1. Have not built any of them yet. A certain full sized 1940's aircraft takes up most of my time of late.

The P-51A maintenance manual shows the later more sophisticated top scoop. The requirements for an aircraft to operate just within the CONUS was beyond that which the RAF thought acceptable.
View attachment 892326

So that's what was inside that thing.

 

[ColFord]

NA-97 A-36A Mustang, brought the first version of the more complex carburettor air duct arrangement, in part as a result of the feedback provided by the RAF to NAA and feedback from the first USAAF units that took NA-91 P-51 Mustangs to the MTO. To install the air filter element, the front and rear baffles had to be removed - it was considered that if an aircraft was in an environment where it needed air filtration in the intake, it would not likely encounter icing conditions requiring further restriction of air before the injection of hot air into the intake that the second baffle introduced.

The earlier NA-73 Mustang I as manufactured and delivered did not have an option for an air filter element to be added to the carburettor air duct. The NA-83 Mustang I introduced that option and NAA was supposed to supply retrofit kits to allow the carburettor air ducts for the NA-73 Mustang I to be upgraded. NA-91 P-51 Mustang / Mustang IA had same basic air filtration arrangement as the NA-83.

For the NA-73, NA-83 and NA-91, when the aircraft was expected to operate within a dusty environment, the air filter element was placed within the carburettor air intake assembly, and remained in place within the air stream through the duct. It could not be 'selected' or bypassed. After the RAF's Allison engined Mustangs started to use the Advanced Landing Grounds in Normandy after D-Day, there was urgent directives issued for all Mustangs using the ALGs to be fitted with and to use the air filter elements. There was also a rapid development and introduction of an improved air filter element by Vokes UK which provided better air filtration and did not effect air flow to the same degree as the original design/provided air filter elements.

The NA-99 P-51A added the top doors on the top of the intake, which drew air through the top doors rather than from the intake just behind the propeller, and moved the air filter element into the airflow.

 

[MIflyer]

it was considered that if an aircraft was in an environment where it needed air filtration in the intake, it would not likely encounter icing conditions

That was a big disagreement between Grumman and Vought. The F4U took the carb air in at the wing root where it had a short trip to the engine intake. Grumman was more concerned with carb icing and took the carb air up at the lower front of the cowl, with a negative impact on the top speed of the Hellcat.

I have a little difficulty understanding how carb icing could be a problem with a two stage supercharged intercooled engine, but they knew far more about it than I.

By the way, read the P-63 flight manual some time. That airplane had multiple options to get air to the engine. At least one P-39 in AK was shot down by a ham sandwich when the pilot tossed one outside the window and it was sucked into the air intake. Another P-39 was lost when the items the pilots were told to toss out the window were sucked into the carb air intake.

 

[mindenroses]

I won't be able to help you (besides that with your smart phone you'll probably be able to point your camera to the text in any language and get a fairly accurate translation on your screen. I've read modeling articles in Japanese that way). But I do have a question you might be willing to answer. I have an Accurate P-51, North Africa version, and have been looking for a long time for a 1/48 RAF P-51 or Mustang Mk. I (so the one with the "chin" machine guns). I didn't know it existed until I read your post. Could you help me out and indicate which kit you have for the first RAF version? I am correct in thinking that the A-36 Apache boxing (Accurate and Italeri) are the (only?) ones? Thanks for any help here.

Ultracast in Canada do a resin conversion kit allowing you to do a Mustang I. The donor kit is Accurate Miniatures' Mustang IA model. The Ultracast conversion provides the chin mounted .5 Browning fuselage part with separate barrels; this requires you to cut out a section of the nose. They also supply wing leading edge machine gun parts to replace the IA's 20mm Hispano mounts. Ultracast's quality is superb. I'm still trying to discover whether the Mustang I's underwing machine gun ejection ports differed from those for the 20mm expended cartridge cases on a 1A, but the research aspect of this project is falling into place piece by piece. Also looking into how the RAS R/T bay appeared different from that provided by the Accurate Miniatures kit, but one step at a time.

 

[MiTasol]

It seems to be common for Brits getting in US fighters to complain that the stick is too far forward and for US pilots to say the opposite about Brit fighters. Perhaps it is not poor ergonomics but rather a different approach.

Anyway, the positioning of the Spitfire stick would seem to worsen the problem of the aileron forces being too high.

Requiring the pilot to play clap your hands during take off and landing is exceptionally poor ergonomics as there is no logical reason for not putting all those critical controls needed during those flight phases on the left. On all aircraft take off and landing are the most critical flight phases and the ones where most accidents happen. Making the pilot play clap your hands when nursing a damaged aircraft in less than ideal conditions, as was so often the case, is nuts.

You will note that all the later British single seater aircraft used the safer/logical layout. Later includes aircraft like the Defiant.

 

[ColFord]

Ultracast in Canada do a resin conversion kit allowing you to do a Mustang I. The donor kit is Accurate Miniatures' Mustang IA model. The Ultracast conversion provides the chin mounted .5 Browning fuselage part with separate barrels; this requires you to cut out a section of the nose. They also supply wing leading edge machine gun parts to replace the IA's 20mm Hispano mounts. Ultracast's quality is superb. I'm still trying to discover whether the Mustang I's underwing machine gun ejection ports differed from those for the 20mm expended cartridge cases on a 1A, but the research aspect of this project is falling into place piece by piece. Also looking into how the RAS R/T bay appeared different from that provided by the Accurate Miniatures kit, but one step at a time.

Apologies for not responding earlier, but had some IT issues the past week.

There are differences between the case and link ejection chutes and ports between the NA-73 & NA-83 Mustang I as built by NAA and as modified in service by the RAF. Locations stayed the same, RAF mod just made the ports in the wing lower surfaces slightly larger. They were different in size and location to the ports on the cannon armed NA-91 P-51Mustang IA, with those on the NA-97 A-36A Mustang and NA-99 P-51A Mustang II being different again. Similarly the sizes and shapes of the armament bays on the top surfaces of the wings differed with the changes in armament between the various marks.

The Ultracast Mustang I conversion, they do include a diagram showing the revised ejection ports and different armament bay doors for the Mustang I. The thread on Britmodeller I linked to further up also cover this subject, with a number of excerpts from the Erection & Maintenance Manuals.

In terms of the RAF radio installations, it will depend on your subject aircraft, when in its service life, what it's camera installation was - it evolved during the Allison engine Mustangs service life with the RAF.

One of the best overviews, in pictorial form with supporting narrative is: