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D Dave Smith raised the question of believing the official docs in a strict fashion.
We've had a discussion about this official document before, for example. The Mustang (Mk.I) is noted to be powered by Allison V-1710 F32 engine - not the case, since the engine on the MkI was F3R; the F32 (actually the F32R) was a 2-stage 3200 rpm engine with intercooler from 1945, for the XP-51J 'lightweight' Mustang.
Doc also states the power delivered at 19000 ft as being 1150 HP - again not true, engine on the MkI was making that kind of power at ~12000 ft; by 19000, it was much less, even with ram effect calculated in.
My point - reader's discretion is as advised as ever.
re
"- Do not forget either that the main problem of the Whirlwind was its small size which made it unable to receive large diameter propellers, essential to really absorb greater power. Correcting this drawback would have required redesigning the entire wing and engine installation, i.e. 80% of the plane."
Or they could fit 4-blade props.
| Maker | Westland | |
| Name | Whirlwind | |
| Type | 1 Seat Ftr | |
| Engine | Number | 2 |
| Engine | Make | Peregrine |
| Engine | Cooling | Liquid |
| Power | Horse Power | 885 |
| Power | At Height (feet) | 15,000 |
| Size | Span (feet, inches) | 45' |
| Size | Length (feet, inches) | 32' |
| Size | Height (feet, inches) | 9' 6" |
| Size | Wing Area (square feet) | 231 |
| Men | Crew | 1 |
| Armament | Forward Fuselage | 4x20mm |
| Armament | Rounds Per Cannon | 60 |
| Weight | Tare (pounds) | 8,040 |
| Normal | Weight (pounds) | 9,980 |
| Normal | Take Off (Over 50 ft) (Yards) | 630 |
| Normal | Landing (Over 50 ft) (Yards) | 750 |
| Normal | Climb to Height (feet) | 15,000 |
| Normal | Climb to Height Time (Mins) | 5.6 |
| Normal | Service Ceiling (Feet) | 30,500 |
| Normal | Maximum Speed (m.p.h) | 356 |
| Normal | Max Speed Height (Feet) | 15,000 |
| Normal | Endurance (Max Power, hrs) | 0.59 |
| Normal | Cruising Speed (m.p.h) | 306 |
| Normal | Cruise Speed Height | 15,000 |
| Normal | 15 Minutes allowance Range (miles) | 340 |
| Normal | 15 Minutes allowance Endurance Hours | 1.11 |
| Normal | Fuel (for range, pounds) | 645 |
| Normal | Fuel (for allowance, pounds) | 240 |
| Normal | Fuel (Total, pounds) | 885 |
| Normal | Fuel (Total, Gallons) | 118 |
| Normal | Miles per 100 pounds fuel | 52.7 |
| Extended | Maximum Fuel Capacity (Gallons) | 136 |
| Extended | Overload Weight (pounds) (Max Fuel) | 10,115 |
| Extended | Take Off (Over 50 ft) (Yards) | 580 |
| Extended | Speed (m.p.h) | 306 |
| Extended | Height (feet) | 15,000 |
| Extended | Range (15 mins allowance) (miles) | 410 |
| Extended | Endurance (15 mins allowance) Hrs | 1.34 |
| Extended | Fuel (for range, pounds) | 780 |
| Extended | Fuel (for allowance, pounds) | 240 |
| Extended | Fuel (Total, pounds) | 1,020 |
| Extended | Fuel (Total, Gallons) | 136 |
| Extended | Miles per 100 pounds of fuel | 52.7 |
| Extended2 | Speed (m.p.h) | 190 |
| Extended2 | Height (feet) | 15,000 |
| Extended2 | Range (15 mins allowance) (miles) | 590 |
| Extended2 | Endurance (15 mins allowance) Hrs | 3.1 |
| Extended2 | Fuel (for range, pounds) | 780 |
| Extended2 | Fuel (for allowance, pounds) | 240 |
| Extended2 | Fuel (Total, pounds) | 1,020 |
| Extended2 | Fuel (Total, Gallons) | 136 |
| Extended2 | Miles per 100 pounds of fuel | 75.7 |
Bad example.I should point out that the 27 l Merlin did not have any problem making similar power to the 35 l DB engine.
You are confusing two different things. A Merlin XX running 12lbs of boost had a temperature rise in the supercharger of 148 degrees C. This was the rise over the temperature of the intake air. The radiators had nothing to do with the temperature of the air in the intake tract, unless there was some sort of intercooler. A Merlin running less pressure would have a lower temperature rise. A Merlin using a lower gear ratio on the supercharger would have less temperature rise but would not have the same pressure available at the same altitudes.these quoted figures are of course with the standard air flow radiators, the Morris items greater cooling capacity would have allowed the engines to run cooler for any given and hence allow extra fuel/air to be burned before the engine temperature rose to the level where the detonation limit was reached. They had a 7% lower drag resistance as tested which would have improved speed to some small extent.
For some reason the difference in speed between the DH and Rotol props was only a few MPH. There was a difference in performance. Performance covering all aspects, not just speed. The finer pitch end of the Rotol props gave better take-off performance and perhaps better climb. If you are trying to fly at 350mph you need the prop pitch to be correct for 350mph (or very close) otherwise the efficiency goes to pot real quick. All the engine and propeller people had figured that out (matching pitch to flight speed) in WW I with fixed pitch props.The pitch range of the DH propellers is quoted as 20 deg whilst the Rotol items are quoted at a pitch range of 34 deg which might be of more of a reason for the difference in performance . The prototype unit with the Rotol propellers was indeed faster, I suggest the increased pitch range is the reason.
- As shown below, increasing the maximum boost on Merlin III gave better performance ONLY at low altitudes - see this graph: max speed at 18,500 feet is the same at 6.25 - 12 - 16 psi boost. Why ? Simply because these three numbers are just three different limiter setting, in all cases the supercharger is the same and gives its maximum at 18,500 feet.
Achieving 1010 hp at 21,000 feet with a displacement of 21 liters would have required a two-stage supercharger which was not available (for the Merlin) until the end of 1941. At that time, development of the Peregrine was abandoned.
This was why the Merlin VIII engine in the early Fulmars was rated at 1275hp at 9lbs of boost using 87 octane fuel. The low geared supercharger could only hold 9lbs of of boost to a very low altitude. The much slower turning impeller didn't heat the air as much.
Getting the wrong pitch in 1940 that cost 20-30mph on a fighter was not impossible. what is close to impossible is that they never fixed it.
Actually I know of no such case, there may have been.Was there a ww2 fighter that suffered 20-30 mph due to a wrong pitch, that we know for sure that was the case?
I presume this is why the increased pitch angle capability (34 deg) of the Rotol propeller on the prototype provided better performance, and one of the suggestions in the document is increasing the pitch angle capability of the DH propeller to a similar level from their standard 20 deg. I presume pitch angle increase can absorb higher power until the blade stalls. Since the beast took off OK on its standard sized props, It should be able to do so OK with more horsepower, and gain improved performance in the air from improved pitch angle capability from the propellersTwo points :
- As shown below, increasing the maximum boost on Merlin III gave better performance ONLY at low altitudes - see this graph: max speed at 18,500 feet is the same at 6.25 - 12 - 16 psi boost. Why ? Simply because these three numbers are just three different limiter setting, in all cases the supercharger is the same and gives its maximum at 18,500 feet.
Achieving 1010 hp at 21,000 feet with a displacement of 21 liters would have required a two-stage supercharger which was not available (for the Merlin) until the end of 1941. At that time, development of the Peregrine was abandoned.
- Do not forget either that the main problem of the Whirlwind was its small size which made it unable to receive large diameter propellers, essential to really absorb greater power. Correcting this drawback would have required redesigning the entire wing and engine installation, i.e. 80% of the plane.
However if we believe that the Whirlwind MK 1 actually did 390mph at 15,000ft but production versions only did 358mph we are supposed to believe that the different props were worth 32mph?
Bingo.We do know a bunch of WW II era aircraft missed their projected speeds by nearly 10%. We even know a few that had production versions miss prototype speeds by that much or a bit more (Curtiss P-46). But they never blame the pitch of the propellers.
Now the far as the "uprated" Peregrine goes.
Now I can and have, looked at several other aspects of the Whirlwind engine set up that may have been less that optimal (state of the art for the time) that hurt altitude performance.
Like questionable intake configuration and questionable exhaust thrust.
I think you mistake my point regarding the increased cooling capacity of the Morris radiators, This has nothing to do with intercooling of the compressed charge whatsoever, but everything to do with increasing heat removal from the engine which was always an issue with the Whirlwind, If it removed heat more efficiently it would lower the engine temperature at max power condition, which was the controlling factor for detonation in the engine. If it ran cooler, extra boost could be applied until the safe limit for engine temperature inducing detonation was reached, thus allowing more power. I doubt the gains would be huge as most of the energy created in an engine goes into heat not power, but it would definitely be thereand an incremental gain, as was the reduced drag, so winner winner chicken dinner as they sayBad example.
The 35 liter DB engine ran at about 6.1lbs of boost, once they got a few niggling problems solved, like holes appearing in the piston tops. by the time the DB 605 appeared the Merlin was not only cleared for 12lbs of boost but 1942 saw boost cleared to 15lbs and later 18lbs with strengthened supercharger drive. Please note that 15lbs of boost is 2.02 Ata.
Amazing how an extra 42% of intake pressure (which in this case is mass air flow) can equal 30% extra displacement.
You are confusing two different things. A Merlin XX running 12lbs of boost had a temperature rise in the supercharger of 148 degrees C. This was the rise over the temperature of the intake air. The radiators had nothing to do with the temperature of the air in the intake tract, unless there was some sort of intercooler. A Merlin running less pressure would have a lower temperature rise. A Merlin using a lower gear ratio on the supercharger would have less temperature rise but would not have the same pressure available at the same altitudes.
This was why the Merlin VIII engine in the early Fulmars was rated at 1275hp at 9lbs of boost using 87 octane fuel. The low geared supercharger could only hold 9lbs of of boost to a very low altitude. The much slower turning impeller didn't heat the air as much.
The detonation limit in supercharged aircraft engines has very little to do with the detonation limit on non-supercharged cars/motorcycles. In the supercharged engine the intake fuel/air mixture at full throttle is very close to it's ignition temperature. Sometimes the pilot gets a warning in the form of conventional "knocking", which is local (in the cylinder) pre-ignition. Sometimes the entire cylinder flashes at once, instead of a controlled burn taking 30-40 degrees of crankshaft rotation all the burn burns in 0-2 degrees the resulting pressure breaks the piston/s, con rods, etc, In the case of radials it may blow cylinders right off the engine.
This is why the engine makers (and airplane) used intercoolers or water/alcohol injection. To cool the intake charge. Worrying about the engine overheating in 2-5 minutes came after you could get the engine to survive making the high power for even a few seconds.
For some reason the difference in speed between the DH and Rotol props was only a few MPH. There was a difference in performance. Performance covering all aspects, not just speed. The finer pitch end of the Rotol props gave better take-off performance and perhaps better climb. If you are trying to fly at 350mph you need the prop pitch to be correct for 350mph (or very close) otherwise the efficiency goes to pot real quick. All the engine and propeller people had figured that out (matching pitch to flight speed) in WW I with fixed pitch props.
The Speed Spitfire used a fixed pitch prop.
View attachment 772636
Getting the wrong pitch in 1940 that cost 20-30mph on a fighter was not impossible. what is close to impossible is that they never fixed it.
All two pitch or variable or constant speed props have the blades mounted in collars that allow the blades to changed in pitch. The hub may only allow a certain range of motion, like the already mentioned 20 or 34 degrees but the max or minimum pitch is adjustable on the ground and experiments would be very easy to do. easier than swapping a propeller (or carving a new wooden one). Now with the 20 degree props maybe you have to sacrifice something else but sacrificing 20-30mph of top speed for??????? shorter take off run? better climb at 120-140mph?
And when comparing different propellers we have the fact that they often used different shaped blades. The blades also were twisted as they went from the hub to the tip.
A prop tip has a shallower pitch angle than the mid part of the blade because the tip is moving much faster than the mid span of the blade in relation to the forward motion.
Different propeller companies may have had different ideas as what the change in blade shape could be.
Experimenting with different blade shapes/profiles is a lot harder than experimenting with different pitch angles.
Famous poor propeller is the early P-47. The speed didn't change much. The climb did, do the shape of the blades. More blade area.
It is not stated what if any modification to the superchargers was required, the changes to the Merlin on the introduction of 100 octane fuel are noted as small. and the situation with the whirlwind may have been similarly modest for a similar percentage gain in pMax speed a ~18000 ft was achieved with the +6.25 psi boost. Go ever lower from that altitude, and you can take advantage of the increased boost, provided the fuel of required octane/grade value is in use.
The +16 psi boost was available between SL and ~7000 ft, but not above that altitude.
(all values are with ram, as per chart; non-ram values are some 2000 ft lower)
Agreed.
+9 psi boost was on 100 oct fuel for the Merlin VIII (max power of 1275 HP).
Max boost on 87 oct fuel was +5.75 psi; for take off, that meant 1080 HP - 200 HP more than the Merlin III, despite a bit lower boost on same fuel and (low) altitude.
Shows how much power the superchargers were sucking up, and how much the throttle losses were a thing.
View attachment 772684
Was there a ww2 fighter that suffered 20-30 mph due to a wrong pitch, that we know for sure that was the case?
Bad example.
The 35 liter DB engine ran at about 6.1lbs of boost, once they got a few niggling problems solved, like holes appearing in the piston tops. by the time the DB 605 appeared the Merlin was not only cleared for 12lbs of boost but 1942 saw boost cleared to 15lbs and later 18lbs with strengthened supercharger drive. Please note that 15lbs of boost is 2.02 Ata.
Amazing how an extra 42% of intake pressure (which in this case is mass air flow) can equal 30% extra displacement.
You are confusing two different things. A Merlin XX running 12lbs of boost had a temperature rise in the supercharger of 148 degrees C. This was the rise over the temperature of the intake air. The radiators had nothing to do with the temperature of the air in the intake tract, unless there was some sort of intercooler. A Merlin running less pressure would have a lower temperature rise. A Merlin using a lower gear ratio on the supercharger would have less temperature rise but would not have the same pressure available at the same altitudes.
This was why the Merlin VIII engine in the early Fulmars was rated at 1275hp at 9lbs of boost using 87 octane fuel. The low geared supercharger could only hold 9lbs of of boost to a very low altitude. The much slower turning impeller didn't heat the air as much.
The detonation limit in supercharged aircraft engines has very little to do with the detonation limit on non-supercharged cars/motorcycles. In the supercharged engine the intake fuel/air mixture at full throttle is very close to it's ignition temperature. Sometimes the pilot gets a warning in the form of conventional "knocking", which is local (in the cylinder) pre-ignition. Sometimes the entire cylinder flashes at once, instead of a controlled burn taking 30-40 degrees of crankshaft rotation all the burn burns in 0-2 degrees the resulting pressure breaks the piston/s, con rods, etc, In the case of radials it may blow cylinders right off the engine.
This is why the engine makers (and airplane) used intercoolers or water/alcohol injection. To cool the intake charge. Worrying about the engine overheating in 2-5 minutes came after you could get the engine to survive making the high power for even a few seconds.
For some reason the difference in speed between the DH and Rotol props was only a few MPH. There was a difference in performance. Performance covering all aspects, not just speed. The finer pitch end of the Rotol props gave better take-off performance and perhaps better climb. If you are trying to fly at 350mph you need the prop pitch to be correct for 350mph (or very close) otherwise the efficiency goes to pot real quick. All the engine and propeller people had figured that out (matching pitch to flight speed) in WW I with fixed pitch props.
The Speed Spitfire used a fixed pitch prop.
View attachment 772636
Getting the wrong pitch in 1940 that cost 20-30mph on a fighter was not impossible. what is close to impossible is that they never fixed it.
All two pitch or variable or constant speed props have the blades mounted in collars that allow the blades to changed in pitch. The hub may only allow a certain range of motion, like the already mentioned 20 or 34 degrees but the max or minimum pitch is adjustable on the ground and experiments would be very easy to do. easier than swapping a propeller (or carving a new wooden one). Now with the 20 degree props maybe you have to sacrifice something else but sacrificing 20-30mph of top speed for??????? shorter take off run? better climb at 120-140mph?
And when comparing different propellers we have the fact that they often used different shaped blades. The blades also were twisted as they went from the hub to the tip.
A prop tip has a shallower pitch angle than the mid part of the blade because the tip is moving much faster than the mid span of the blade in relation to the forward motion.
Different propeller companies may have had different ideas as what the change in blade shape could be.
Experimenting with different blade shapes/profiles is a lot harder than experimenting with different pitch angles.
Famous poor propeller is the early P-47. The speed didn't change much. The climb did, do the shape of the blades. More blade area.
It is not stated what if any modification to the superchargers was required, the changes to the Merlin on the introduction of 100 octane fuel are noted as small. and the situation with the whirlwind may have been similarly modest for a similar percentage gain in power, but none of the bodies involved with the document seemed particularly exercised about it.
My experience with highly tuned motorcycle race engines is that detonation at full power gives little warning before complete melt down ,or mechanical destruction of the engine LOL!
It is not stated what if any modification to the superchargers was required, the changes to the Merlin on the introduction of 100 octane fuel are noted as small. and the situation with the whirlwind may have been similarly modest for a similar percentage gain in p
Well folks, thank you for your contributions, I seriously doubt that any more definitive understanding of the document is likely to happen 80 years after it was written, but it is fascinating nevertheless, and demonstrates that before the decision to terminate the Whirlwind, improvements in performance were being actively pursued.
Of course the Peregrine although deemed "unreliable" was a sight better than the early Merlin's which were clearly a greater issue for the country
Confusing the time lines doesn't help anything.Of course the Peregrine although deemed "unreliable" was a sight better than the early Merlin's which were clearly a greater issue for the country
it would lower the engine temperature at max power condition, which was the controlling factor for detonation in the engine.
That is the metric often used. However the actual metric should have been what was the cost of the pair of Peregrines (or Whirlwind) for each Typhoon or Tornado with their 24 cylinder engines. Compared to the Tornado they weighed within 100lbs of each other empty, held a similar amount of fuel, Whirlwind carried a little less ammo (if they had given it belts) and in 1940 they didn't have belt fed 20mm guns to stick in any airplane.Unfortunately, for every Whirlwind, UK industry would've been delivering 1,5 to 2 Spitfires, with comparable performance - and that math was very real so the UK went with that, thus Peregrine was cancelled, together with Whirlwind. RR had more resources to improve Merlin, and Westland started making Spitfires.
That is the metric often used. However the actual metric should have been what was the cost of the pair of Peregrines (or Whirlwind) for each Typhoon or Tornado with their 24 cylinder engines. Compared to the Tornado they weighed within 100lbs of each other empty, held a similar amount of fuel, Whirlwind carried a little less ammo (if they had given it belts) and in 1940 they didn't have belt fed 20mm guns to stick in any airplane.
A 1940/early 1941 Spitfire with four 20mm guns possible. It didn't have the performance they were looking for.
They needed to get rid of Whirlwind production in 1940 in order to build more Lysanders