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Tomo, when did work on the BMW 802 start? What sort of potential did it have?
Historically it was abandoned due to work on the jet engines progressing, while wikipedia indicates that it started development once the 801 was brought into full production (so 1941-42). Would an earlier merger have allowed work to start sooner on it and prevent its cancellation in 1943 for work on the BMW003?The potential was there, the 'F. und S.' book states take off power of 2450 PS. Three speed supercharger was installed. Should be in the league of the Centaurus and the R-3350.
Whenever I alter an original photo or document I make a footnote; so the new pic will not appear later as original again. This is my way to handle historic documents.I did the coloured lines, and you can double check them with the graph at pg. 173 at the aforementioned book. If you have stuff that is more credible than the stuff I post here, then post it, by all means.
But, I guess it is always easier to throw mud on other peoples contribution here, rather than to contribute.
The potential was there, the 'F. und S.' book states take off power of 2450 PS. Three speed supercharger was installed. Should be in the league of the Centaurus and the R-3350.
So no BMW 803 gives the 802 a chance to become operational in 1943-44?Hello, wiking:
The BMW was working on quite a few projects. Focusing just on one or two piston engines should, maybe, bear more fruit than an earlier merger.
Hypothetically say BMW, given the 1936 merger, never started any other project beyond the 801 and 003. What could be achieved in terms of development of the 801? I'm assuming the BMW 132 and Bramo 323 stop development around 1939-40 when 1200hp is achieved and basically tops out.Those projects (800, 802, 803, 804 and 805) started between 1939 and 1941.
Developments
801J: further development of the 801D-2 with turbocharger, power plant TJ 1944/45, 1,810 hp starting power
801K: how 801J, with Stirnradumkehrgetriebe (left-rotating propellers)
801S: 801D-2 with a better charger and other parts of the engine of the 801E project, enhanced oil cooler armor, 2000 HP startup performance with MW-50 (2,200 hp from the beginning of 1945 possible), power plant TS 1944-45
801E: Bomber engine, development of the 801D-2 with a higher charger translation, starting power 2000 hp
801F: Hunter engine, development of the 801E, starting power 2000 hp, with MW-50-2400 PS system, in February 1945, with 50 MW plant in 2580 hp, BMW internal name 801F-1
801F (-2) 2400 hp takeoff power beyond emergency power with MW-50 system; This engine differed from the 801F-1, 801F-2, the term would therefore be logical, just is not found in the documents of BMW
801R: further development of the 801E with two-stage four-speed supercharger
801 Home-engined vehicles: test engine to save alloy materials
...
I'm assuming some of the following become available in 1943-44; could any be ready by 1942? If so, could we see radial FW190s able to compete at 27,000 feet on equal terms with the P-51?
Also any idea what the BMW 801E mentioned above wasn't produced and they waited for the F-series?
A more riskier earlier (with regard to the service use) approach to the Fw 190 engine might be pressing on with BMW 139. The installation will certainly need more louvers so it can be cooled better, along with cooling fan (instead of ducting spinner), as it was the case with reworked V1 prototype.
The BMW 139 was to make 1410 PS at 4500 m (5 min rating) and 1270 PS at 4900 m (30 min rating), weight 800 kg bare engine, but with cooling fan.
BMW 139 seems to have been similar in performance to the R-2600-8 if the latter was stuck with only the high supercharger gear. (both roughly 1250 hp at 16000 ft) Going by the chart here http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/engines/2600-table-28832-2.html
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/engines/166968d1304950872-2600-table-26-vs-17.jpg
and going off the figures for the 139's performance mentioned in the Fw 190 thread here:
The 139's 30 min rating seems a bit better than the R-2600-8's military rating though. (1410 ps ~1390 hp at 4500 m ~14760 ft vs what looks like 1325 hp at the same altitude) Plus the 139 was smaller in diameter and lighter.
I've seen some claims to the BMW 139 being a 'failure' but most of the more detailed explanations for mass production being passed over in favor of the follow-on 801 project was simply the technical superiority of the latter. (I believe tomo_pauk made the argument for sticking with the earlier design and pushing it into production in place of the 801, allowing an earlier introduction of a significantly lighter, simpler, yet somewhat lower performing engine)
Likewise I can't seem to find much reason for the Bramo 329 being an actual 'failure' other than BMW wanting to concentrate on their own designs. That engine seems like it had more potential to be an early-war counterpart to the R-2800 (though closer to the R-3350, Centaurus, and BMW 802 in displacement) bench testing at 2000 hp (or possible PS) in october 1938.
There also seems to be a lot of confusion with authors referring to the 139 as an 18 cylinder engine and the 329 as 14 cylinder, or both as 14 cylinder (and others showing photographs of some mysterious pre-war 18 cylinder engine), but the information I've seen points to the BMW 139 being a 14 cylinder design of 155.5 mm bore and stroke.
Given the discussion in this thread http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/engines/bmw-139-information-13261.html
and the specific reference of the Bramo 329 using a 154 mm bore and stroke, even though it also lists it as 14 cylinders (and 40.2L displacement) it still seems likely that the bore/stroke figures are accurate and based on a shortened stroke version of the Fafnir's cylinders. (and thus a 51.63L engine)
It really seems like a good deal of the information on the 139 and 329 has been jumbled up over time and made a bit more confusing with the (projected but unbuilt) 18 cylinder BMW 140 design also being present prior to the 1938 merger.
It seems like the BMW merger may have done more harm than good there, or at least resulting BMW-led management. Rather than keeping the 329 in development as a larger, more powerful radial engine to complement the smaller, lighter 1500 ps take-off 129 (and indeed, potentially offer a 2000 ps class engine years before the Jumo 222 might have been ready, let alone 2000 ps class 603 or 213 models). They would have had 2 very useful bomber and transport engines potentially also useful for fighters. (the lower weight of the 139 seems like it would make a better fighter engine than the 801 did -or contemporary R-2600 due both to weight and frontal area there, especially with the cooling fan arrangement)
The 329 should have been a good match to the Do 217 while the 139 seems like it would be a better fit for the Ju 88 and possibly some He 111 derivatives (possibly the Ju 252 -though the 329 would have allowed that to get by with just 2 engines more like the C-46) among other possibilities. Aside from potentially keeping the He 111 more competitive as a bomber/patrol aircraft, there might have been more potential there in the transport role. (mostly if the fuselage was expanded or stretched, but at some point that's more a new aircraft just using the He 111's wings -something more akin to the Super Electra to Lodestar transition would merit engines more in the Jumo 211 class anyway)
Interestingly, that discussion also mentions a 10 cylinder BMW design (2 5-cylinder rows using 801 bore/stroke perhaps?) which sounds like it might have produced a better performing and lower drag replacement for the old 9-cylinder engines or French 14N. (or Italian radials)
The stroke has been reduced on the 139 cylinders (and bore very slightly increased on the later 801) and diameter significantly reduced compared to the 132. It might not have ended up any better than the existing GR 14N in dimensions/weight/performance, though. (a smaller displacement 14 cylinder engine probably would have made more sense in terms of power and size/drag/cooling -and with Bramo and BMW both working with rather similar displacement and dimension 9-cylinder radials, they lacked the sort of competition that Wright and P&W had with the R-1820 and R-1830 in the 1930s -or various Japanese engines)With the same bore and stroke and same connecting rod length engine diameter wasn't going to change enough to matter.