What went wrong most for Germany?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 25, 2005

A lot of people dont understand how of a mutual thing it was for the allies and the soviets. Both sides depended on one another.

P38 Pilot · Sep 25, 2005

Yeah, well, you have a point there.... Germany was split two sides in fighting. You either went east or west.

reddragon · Sep 25, 2005

I have some thoughts on it but will have to wait until later to post, but it's always easy to look back and see mistakes than it is to be at the point of decision making and trying for a different outcome.

schwarzpanzer · Sep 25, 2005

Churchill hated Communism, but gave a speech about it paling into insignificance vs Nazism.

We may have still fought with China, but we would have weakended them so badly Communism would have been destroyed

It was likely Soviet influence that caused China to go Communist?

Communists aren't demons either P38!

Hitler also could have handled the Jewish issue better. Instead of being evil and ordering their deaths, he could of had sent some out of the country. Thats it.

Agreed, but as others have said, very unlikely.

Germany probably could have become a powerful country next to USA or UK.

Germany is more powerful than the UK.

Apart from the fact that nukes are forbidden.

The world would have been better if Hitler did this instead of invading Poland on September 1st, 1939.

This was the whole point, taking back Dansig and Krakow etc.

P38, did you know that in 1939, the greatest hope of France and Britain is that Hitler would fight it out with Stalin and leave western Europe out of the fight?

Suppose Stalin had won though?

This was not an option.

The closest thing to what P38 is talking about would be what Patton said?

Consider the alternative if we werent in Germany by the time we deployed the first atmic bomb. Berlin was going to be nuked.

Churchill actually planned chemical attacks!

It exists today and hopefully one day it will be destroyed.

What the hell are you saying! You're nearly as bad as Hitler??

So what do those researchers would have liked Germany to do?

I think it's well accepted that his mistake was pursuing idealogical goals, but then was Stalin's mistake in defending them?

Also he could have had most of the USSR on his side, if he had played his cards right.

I think it was well said earlier (by PlanD) that with UK air and sea superiority, that the Axis had no chance whatsoever?

Kursk was a beauty! someone said to Hitler:

"Do you think anyone even knows where Kursk is??"

A lot of people dont understand how of a mutual thing it was for the allies and the soviets.

Very true, Hitler criticised the German WW1 leaders for taking Germany to war on two fronts, then did it himself.

He also knew what happened to Napoleon, but did it anyway!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 25, 2005

schwarzpanzer said:
It was likely Soviet influence that caused China to go Communist?

Communists aren't demons either P38!

I agree here. Most people that lived in the Soviet Union or China were not bad evil people. They were oppressed by there government and kept in the dark about democracy.

schwarzpanzer · Sep 25, 2005

If Communist Countries actually were Communist, that would be Utopian IMHO.

However, the exact opposite is true.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 25, 2005

Technically you are right but the system never works and never will work.

syscom3 · Sep 25, 2005

China went communist mainly because the gap between the poor and wealthy was insurmountable. Hungry people tend to support the other party when that happens. Not to mention the nationalists also had an incredibly corrupt govt.

I remember a lesson from politics 101....."make sure the pesants are fed and happy"

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 25, 2005

Yes but communism in the end allways fails. The ideas are not bad but in order for it to work there can be no social classes like rich and poor and if there are you can not let the poor see what the rich are living like.

syscom3 · Sep 25, 2005

Agree'd. But if youre a hungry peasant in 1946, tired of a corrupt ruling party, perhaps you too would be seduced by communism. Remember, we have the hindsight of 75 years to see it was a failure.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 25, 2005

That is true, just like many fell for Fascism also. You go for what gives you the most hope at the time.

P38 Pilot · Sep 25, 2005

Thats what i meant about Communism being destroyed! Not by nukes, but by the people rebeling against the Communist Leaders! Hopefully it will cease soon.

schwarzpanzer · Sep 25, 2005

I suppose it all depends on if the leaders are genuine Communists, I suppose the only one who came close was Stalin.

Otherwise it's always going to be abused.

Then again, who can say they live in a genuine Democracy when even disagreeing with something or being outspoken can make life a lot harder, or even get you killed?

Also the Iraq protests were not heeded also, I am sure there are other examples?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 25, 2005

What about the Iraq protests. That is democracy at its finest. You are able to voice your opinion.

P38 Pilot · Sep 25, 2005

Thats what the American soldiers died for, so people can spit on them or backsass them. But soldiers one day meet people who apprecitate what they do.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 26, 2005

P38 Pilot said:
Thats what the American soldiers died for, so people can spit on them or backsass them. But soldiers one day meet people who apprecitate what they do.

P38 what did I tell you ealier, please think about what you write before you write it. That is not what any American Soldiers have fought for and that is not what myself or any of my comrades fought for in Iraq. We do not fight to be spit on or backsass (what ever the hell backsass is). What we do gives them the right to do that but it is not what we fight for.

reddragon · Sep 26, 2005

I don't believe the Soviets were ever a true communist form of government. In actuality, they were a military dictatorship.

reddragon · Sep 26, 2005

As far as what went wrong for Germany, there really isn't a simple answer. I think it was a multitude of factors.

I feel the war with Russia was probably the largest mistake. I think there were three things that went wrong, leading them to be unable to reach Moscow. The delay in launching Operation Barbarosa because of the attack on Greece and Yugoslavia contributed to this. Even more important was taking tanks from Army Group Center's advance on Moscow for several weeks, slowing the advance to a crawl. I have to wonder if they could have occupied Moscow had those tanks not been taken away. Of course, even if they had occupied Moscow, that doesn't guarantee victory, but Moscow was a MAJOR hub for transportation and communications, as well as where the leadership was concentrated. Capturing Moscow would have been a major disruption to communications and supply, since it appears all roads went through Moscow. Of course, the way they treated the Russian people was also a factor. I'm under the impression that the Germans were welcomed as heros when they first entered many Russian towns and villages. If Germany had created an independent Russian state, I think they would have had a strong ally rather than what turned out to be a strong enemy. Of course, failure to prepare for a winter campaign was a VERY bad move, too.

Medvedya · Sep 26, 2005

reddragon said:
I don't believe the Soviets were ever a true communist form of government. In actuality, they were a military dictatorship.

Urmm, at the very beginning perhaps, but certantly not after Lenin introduced the N.E.P to placate the people after the Kronstadt uprising.

syscom3 · Sep 26, 2005

Ive always wondered if the nazi's had bypassed Stalingrad and rolled on towards the Caspian Sea oil fields, that they would have won.

What went wrong most for Germany?

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