Where was the Luftwaffe defeated?

Erich said:

Gentlemen ~ I have a copy of the written order in April 1943 to move LW gruppen from the Ost to the West which slowly accumulated into Reichsverteidigung

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Yes Erich but they should be considered in the context of all movements.
Do those orders refer to I./JG 26 which returned to RLV duties having swopped with elements of JG 54 in February '43?

In reality not many fighter assets were transferred from the Eastern Front to RLV duties.
March 1943 I./JG 3 did so at the same time as elements of JG 2 and JG 27returned from Africa.

May 1942 Stab JG 3 moved West but didn't receive any aircraft until October!

February 1944 I./JG 5 moved from Bulgaria to RLV duties.

The last units to move West were II./JG 5 and IV./JG 54 in May 1944.

I've probably missed or forgotten a couple,but the trend was not to strip one theatre to reinforce another. At the time of "Torch" in November 1942 the units defending the Reich were actually reduced as units were moved South.

Through all this the RLV forces never amounted to anything like the 2,000 fighters that Goering wanted and the Luftwaffe never had anything like enough pilots to fly them anyway.

The RLV forces were mostly expanded by producing new units,like the Zerstorer Gruppen created in October 1943, splitting existing units,making them up to a full three Gruppe Geschwader or adding a fourth Gruppe.
In March 1944 RLV forces got a large boost with the transfer of JG 300,301 and 302 to the day fighter forces.

Cheers
Steve

Steve

as I said it was a written order for ALL units not involved in the ground attack and bombing campaign that were closer to the Reich to pack u8p and leave. besides 26 you had 1 and 11 which started the practice of dropping bombs of course the ill-affected br 21cm rocket launcher and the sub-types, plus unusual uses of cannon, T/E were also called back but took their sweet time for all sorts of reasons to get back to the front lines, primarily a complete change of tactics for the ZG crews to attack US 4-engines.

the He 162 would of never made it past JG 1, the Volksjäger was a pipedream as the Me 262 was to supplant existing Reich defense units the He 162 is not even mentioned in written ordred materials for late 1945. Funny the Ta 152H and sub-variants do not get past the JG 301 unit either, the Lw was slow to of course implement anything in spring of 45 so much wa already lost via written exists.

4th staffel became a reality in August of 44 for day fighter units, not NJG as a side note.............

Wilde Sau units the 3 mentioned were also performing several day time ops during late 1943

Thanks for that Erich.

I have seen it argued that the earlier operations of JGs 300,301,302 actually reduced the operational readiness of other units whose aircraft they effectively shared.

Of course by mid/late 1944 it was a moot point who was flying RLV. The units we mentioned (at least elements of JGs 3,4,5,11,27,53,76,77,300,301,302,ZG 26, ZG 76,as well as "specialist" units like I./JG 400,"Jasta" Helgoland and ErprKdo 262) were officially engaged in RLV but the Eastern Front was closing in on the Reich too.

Cheers

Steve

drgondog said:

I have often speculated that the bulk of shooting at guys in chutes (on Allied side) might have been ;love taps' from bomber gunners. In the example above the guy would probably be dead had a P-51 pilot been shooting at him.. I have no doubt that German pilots were shot at after bailing out, as Allied crews suffered the same fate.

It is an interesting question. There was no mercy given on the ground by a sniper shooting a soldier eating a K-ration, or a tank gunner shooting soldiers running away from him in the back. Is the guideline to wait until chow is over and he GI picks up his M-1? Or wait until the soldiers running away decide to stand and fight? Different from killing a guy hanging in a parachute after trying to kill you and failing? I don't know how to make that distinction.

I know there was dialogue and discussion about 'just when do you stop shooting?" When the German pilot ejects his canopy, when he is trying to climb or drop out of his ship"? Is there a problem strafing a crash landed fighter? or catching the guy as he tries to run from his airplane?

He didn't (couldn't) surrender. The pilot was trying to save his own life in the immediate moment but certainly would be back in a new fighter later if we are talking about a German pilot over his own territory, or RAF pilot during BoB.

It wasn't contrary to Geneva Convention or "Rules of War" - so where is the moral/ethical line and how is it articulated and applied? Is a fighter pilot that shoots at another fighter pilot in a parachute different morally from an He 111 pilot dropping bombs in the middle of London - or B-17 bombadier unloading on Hamburg or Dresden?

Equally interesting question. Where is the moral legal stricture valid for a citizen of a German city that has been bombed taking up arms and killing an armed American fighter pilot - who may Not have surrendered his firearm?

I can't speak for everyone here, but if we were in a war here I would have zero inhibitions about wasting a Chinese or Russian (hypothetical adversary) pilot shot down near me. If I had the shot.. I would take it.

Oh, well - enough philosopy.

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i dont have to explain it to you because you know all too well....but there is this stygma of "chivalry" attached to fighter pilots. i dont know if its hollywood...folklore from the first ww....but it does exist. example....franz stigler and the B17 charlie brown. everyone loves the story but forgets stigler shot down a couple 17s before stalking the CB...and had full intention of shooting it down before he saw the blood of the dead tail gunner....then he had a moment of sympathy or compassion. he never repeated the act and went on to shoot down other allied ac as....was his duty. its all grand the stories of the fighter pilots saluting the helpless enemy in his uncontrollable ac and flying away....but that's pipedream...a way to "humanitize" war into a gentleman's contest where everyone walks away to go at it another day. pilots did do things like that. but it was a war and their duty ( regardless of which side they were on ) was to defend their country, protect their countrymen and allies, and vanquish the enemy so the war would end. because pilots were somewhat removed from the grim horrors of seeing the death they dealt.. the war to them was sterile. at the end of a mission they would go back to their base....eat a hot meal in a mess....drink in the officers club...maybe go to town and go on a date with some gal....sleep in a decent bed...and do it all over the next day. they didnt didnt eat cold rations from a can, sleep in a frozen puddle, watch their buddies die beside them..etc..etc. they watched planes catch fire...spin out ... auger in... blow up...some pilots bailed...some werent so lucky. they were all somewhat removed or insulated from it. it was a tough decision as to what to do next and i am sure the emotions changed day by day. if someone you knew was shot bailing out or had landed safely and was killed on the ground after they surrendered....the decision that day may be different from yesterday. and that happneded on both sides. to be honest i have not read to many accounts of pilots shooting enemies while in the silk ( either side ). not doubting it happened just havent read it. i have read many reports where the downed ( bellied in...etc) ac was straffed as the pilot was getting out or the pilot was straffed on the ground. which ever side of the fence you sit on you know that the plane itself is not as much of a threat to your war effort as is the pilot. a fleet stranded on the ground isnt as threatening as one in the air. and the only thing making that possible back then was a pilot. take the time and really ponder it.....the pilot you let go today...what will he do tomorrow? its different if he goes down over territory you occupy...and his home turf! tomorrow he could and will probably be in another ac....in the sky. will take down a 17 or a 24 with 10 men....maybe take down 2, 3, ?? will he sneak up on the tail of someone in your group and take them down? and you could have kept that from happening. if you had eric hartmann in your sites..on the ground or in a chute...or molders, galland or any of the great aces....would you take the shot...or salute and fly off? like i said tough decisions and each man had to make that call for themselves....and i will not judge any of them.. which ever side they may be on.

stona said:

Thanks for that Erich.

I have seen it argued that the earlier operations of JGs 300,301,302 actually reduced the operational readiness of other units whose aircraft they effectively shared.

Of course by mid/late 1944 it was a moot point who was flying RLV. The units we mentioned (at least elements of JGs 3,4,5,11,27,53,76,77,300,301,302,ZG 26, ZG 76,as well as "specialist" units like I./JG 400,"Jasta" Helgoland and ErprKdo 262) were officially engaged in RLV but the Eastern Front was closing in on the Reich too.

Cheers

Steve

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Plus JG1

At the end of the day, JG 2 and 26 from LF3 were engaged every time against incoming and outgoing US bombers form England in combinatio with RLV, and even JG 51 was engaged when US attacked Posnan, Stettin or flew Shuttle missions over Poland.

don't forget III. and IV./JG 54 but in any case the prime directive till January 15th, 45 was defense of Germany as a whole then the carry over for the last battles east of Berlin where the bulk of the Reich defense were sent east to combat the Soviets but like JG 301 the futility in this as the LW JG's had to combat both Allied sides, could be dive bombing the Soviets one day and then putting up scant fighters for attacks on US bombers or engage US 9th AF fighter bombers, and British FB missions way to the north in Germany......

My best guess of where the Luftwaffe was defeated was Operation Bodenplatte. The USAAF and allies lost 144 aircraft on the ground, 70 in aireal combat, and 62 heavily damaged, while the Luftwaffe lost around 300 planes. But while the Allies could replace their losses and pilots, the Germans could not. Many of the downed German pilots were experienced veterans.

My other guess is Berlin. The Luftwaffe put up a fierce defense, but it was still no match for the unstoppable Alied advance, and the it was crushed with the rest of Germany