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That's the point that's often overlooked...when a new weapon is introduced to the battlefield, there is always a response from the other side.
*IF* the Me262 developed sooner, and performed as hoped (and/or the He280, for that matter), it would have forced the accelerated development of the P-59, P-80, XP-83 and the FH Phantom from the U.S. alone. Britain had their own jet programs and would have also reacted the same, by accelerating their Meteor and Vampire programs.
The point was comparison to the 190 and Typhoon, not Spitfire IX. And while the performance at military power for the Mustang I and IA may have been less, with WEP (or overboost prior to formal WEP rating) it's a different story below 10,000 ft. (especially below 6,000 ft) The Mustang II/P-51A was in the same boat comparing military to WEP, though with higher FTH, not as much power down low and critical altitude for level speed just above 10,000 ft.Wasn't faster than the Spitfire IX at combat altitude, though, was it?
Bigger issue is the RAF simply disliked the P-39, they employed overboost plenty on P-40s, so it would have become relevant had they adopted the P-39 more heavily.Might have is guesswork, not history.
Weren't solutions for that already employed on later Hurricane models? (including firewalls)It didn't; the Merlin XX was as big an engine as it could take. The Hurricane was also a deathtrap for pilots, if the wing tanks were holed, since the cockpit's open framework drew the flames straight in, and onto them.
Both of those were seriously problems that should have been caught earlier in testing and addressed sooner in the P-39's case, and seriously limited the Corsair's carrier suitability in general. Though, in both cases, I do wonder if wing slats (or even fixed slots) would have been worthwhile solutions. The P-39 may have had other solutions including nose ballast, but I believe tip-stall was still a bit harsh regardless of actually entering a spin. (and one of the issues complicating landing on both aircraft)How about the P-39's sudden and deadly flat-spin?
How about the Corsair's reputation for being fatal to new pilots?
Again, Merlin XX powered spitfires. Less/no need for the cropped LF Mk.V as well. (putting those cropped merlins on Hurricane ground-attack aircraft may have been more useful)So we cancel the Typhoon and what shall we challenge the Fw190 with in a low-level fight? Surely not the Hurricane...
Unless development continued and only production was canceled. Including potential Griffon powered derivatives (possibly sooner) if the Sabre was canceled and Griffon expedited.And without the Typhoon, there would be no Tempest...
No, but using alternate engines certainly wouldn't have hurt, especially during the prototype stage. A DB-601N or E powered 190 prototype may have developed to totally supplant demand for that engine with the 109 once production could switch over in large enough volumes.As above.
Given the problems that the Fw 190 encountered in early operations and development, should that have been cancelled too? Same for any number of WW2 types.
The Mustang I should be faster than the P-51 at low alt, but I haven't seen any formal reports actually USING WEP in tests as that rating came later. (akin to WEP on the P-40) The P-51A's figures do include WEP though, with critical altitude for 1,480 HP at 10,400 ft at which height it managed 415 MPH, and 380 mph at 1000 ft. (the earlier 8.8 supercharged Allison of the P-51, A-36, and Mustang I should have given significantly higher speed at that level under the same conditions up to around 5,000-6,000 ft -I'm not positive exactly where the power curves converge)There doesn't seem to be a lot between the P51A and the Typhoon, but the P39 didn't come close to the Typhoon. I know of one test which gave the P51a a remarkable speed but that was factory fresh with specially sanded finish. With normal wear it seems to have a speed of approx. 370 at about 4 to 5000 ft. The Typhoon seems to have similar performance.
Not as good for GA as the P-47 and merlin P-51s were more valuable as escorts.First and foremost I do believe that the GA role is the issue for the Typhoon. It had limitations as a fighter but it was the RAF's main GA aircraft. Understandably A lot is made of the A36 as an attack aircraft but I always have one question in the back of my mind and that is, if it was as good as its cracked up to be, why didn't they carry on building them? presumably there was a reason.
Still have the problem with Lockheed's own development and mass production tooling lagging for any model making that scenario more difficult.Get Vultee to produce that (non turbo P-38), instead of the Vengenace - per gjs' question re. Vengeance's future?
The idea is more to be a better Hurricane rather than a better Spitfire, and I haven't been able to find information on the actual airfoil section used on the Defiant. It's BIGGER than the Spitfire's for sure, but I'm not sure of the thickness.If we really want a cannon-armed fighter powered by 1-stage Merlin, stick two cannons on the Spitfire as historicallyFour cannons on a single-stage Merlin means quite a big drag weight. Hurricane also have had thick wings (and of greater area than Daffy), maybe even thicker than Defiant. Thin wings were the key to Spitfire's performance, Spitfire was smaller, the Daffy was with wider fuselage because of the turret, so it would be hard pressed to emulate Spitfire's performance on same engine.
Until the engineering disparity the Mustang brings, long range aircraft are pretty much limited to being poorer performers than any single-engine counterparts and twin engine development was lacking. (and also had disadvantages)Single seat Defiant is a recurring theme, I've even sqetched a long-range fighter based on it. However, once we recall how even the Spitfire was in performance disadvantage in a good part of 1941 and 1942 vs. LW, having yet another aircraft that has 10-20 mph disadvantage does not much good for the RAF and the Allies.
There was also a ton of room for compromise. The 15% thickness ratio on the Whirlwind or the likes of the P-40 or P-39 or P-39 or P-47's, or BF-109, or Fw 190 wings all fit in between the very thick wings Hawker was using for its fighters. The F4U used a thick root section, but tapered down to a thinner airfoil profile fairly quickly outboard of that and Gloster's F.5/34 wing used a fairly thick root (NACA 2218 I believe) but tapered down far more than either the Hurricane or Typhoon.One designer making a "mistake" is one thing. Many designers being off by a large margin pretty much all at the same time (with a few years) on a variety of aircraft means something wrong with the basic drag assumptions they were working with.
Perhaps they were hearing what they wanted to hear as the thick wing/s were lighter than a thin wing AND offered high lift at low speed giving good short field performance (much prized by the Air Ministry) without resorting to the "trick' flaps.
With the Saber and Vulture canceled, the Typhoon potentially moves onto the Griffon which gets much more development priority than it did historically (ie Perigrine and Vulture canceled, Merlin and Griffon emphasized).But if the Typhoon was cancelled early, would that necessarily mean the end of the Tempest? Certainly cancelling the Sabre would do that, but would Hawkers and Camm get on with the improved Typhoon if the Sabre was still going to be available?
And Griffons.Merlins for heavens sake - Merlins.
Except, unlike the Me 262, accelerated P-51 development and official USAAF support could have meant all the P-40's Merlins going to Mustangs instead, and no Allison P-51 at all, or a turbocharged Allison P-51.The thing is, if we can engage the retrospectroscope and move forward development of the Me 262, then why can't we do the same for the P-51 and get fully escorted bombing underway earlier?
Just sayin'...
Well, that's news to me...I always understood the P-40 to use the Allison V-1710Except, unlike the Me 262, accelerated P-51 development and official USAAF support could have meant all the P-40's Merlins going to Mustangs instead, and no Allison P-51 at all, or a turbocharged Allison P-51.
Well, that's news to me...I always understood the P-40 to use the Allison V-1710
Still have the problem with Lockheed's own development and mass production tooling lagging for any model making that scenario more difficult.
...
There was also a ton of room for compromise. The 15% thickness ratio on the Whirlwind or the likes of the P-40 or P-39 or P-39 or P-47's, or BF-109, or Fw 190 wings all fit in between the very thick wings Hawker was using for its fighters. The F4U used a thick root section, but tapered down to a thinner airfoil profile fairly quickly outboard of that and Gloster's F.5/34 wing used a fairly thick root (NACA 2218 I believe) but tapered down far more than either the Hurricane or Typhoon.
Beyond that, Gloster's Twin engine developments become a lot more attractive if you've only got the Hercules and Merlin in priority development. (say if everything else is canceled to streamline production)
Except, unlike the Me 262, accelerated P-51 development and official USAAF support could have meant all the P-40's Merlins going to Mustangs instead, and no Allison P-51 at all, or a turbocharged Allison P-51.
Maybe. Re. the Air Ministry not wanting to buy two-engined aircraft when 1-engines was around: they signed the contract for Whirlwind, Beaufighter (erstwhile as a day fighter?) and Lightning.
Lightning, never saw service with the RAF. The order for 500 odd 'Lightning IIs' was cancelled.
Beaufighter is the exception, proving a versatile and useful aircraft, but hardly as a fighter and hardly comparable with a Spitfire, Typhoon or Tempest. It showed some of the advantages of a twin engine design in the roles in which it became competent.
Regarding the suggestion as an alternative to the Firefly: wouldn't mounting hispanos in underwing pods avoid the issues with relocating the fuel tanks? (potentially with a smaller number of .303 brownings still able to fit elsewhere)The problem with most of these "improved" Defiant schemes seems to be the rather large number of modifications needed. AS in take off the engine and cowl from the firewall forward, detach the tail somewhere aft of the turret and unbolt the landing gear legs. Replace everything else and still call it a Defiant.
Or cancel the P-38 and task Bell with developing the non-turbocharged P-38 derivative (given they'd be competing for the same engines anyway and development timelines were fairly similar for both aircraft at that point). The P-40 was ready for mass production significantly earlier than other American fighters, and pretty well irreplaceable early war. (with greater emphasis on the P-51, it could/should have displaced the P-40 sooner than historically and be better suited for the V-1650 than the P-38 was -no counter rotation, possibly additional modification to cowling and mounts, etc -and the P-38 being already designed for turbocharging as well, so better suited for the V-1710 in either configuration)Then there is something about multiple types of aircraft built by Lockheed (eg. Hudson, Ventura, Lightning all in the same time in Burbank, plus B-17s in the Vega factory), while the Vultee was not in great commitment for any 1st line aircraft. Get Vultee produce only non-turbo P-38 and that's it. The non-turbo Lightning are flying already in 1941, so there is very little of development needed there.
Those wings are indeed very thick, that was my point. Supermarine used a very thin (for the time) 13% maximum thickness and reasonable compromises in thicker, stronger wings that were easier to build, and easier to fill with internal stores should have been very possible, practical and attractive. (and what the majority of other air forces had on their fighters wings)Hawker was using 19% thick (at root) wings for the Hurricane and Typhoon, that is more than 20% thicker than aircraft you mentioned; I'm not sure that wing profile series chosen for the two fighters was of the most modern type either. Another thing that held Hurricane down was the huge wing area for the power installed, while the Typhoon could've used a bit more area for a bit better altitude 'behavior'
Thanks for that information, but that would still be significantly thinner than the Typhoon's case, wouldn't it?The wing of F4U did not tapper so fast, it was still 15% at the weapon bay?
Engine power isn't what kept the Spitfire and Hurricane from mounting 2 or 4 cannons sooner, it was completely down to the reliability of the cannons themselves when mounted in those wings. Further development of both the wings, mounts, and cannons was necessary before that became really practical on the Spitfire V and Hurricane IIC.Whirlwind, relatively few (116) built amongst complaints that it used two engines to lift four cannon, the same as the 'Hawker fighter' which became the Typhoon would on one. That illustrates the original point.
The bigger issue there is the Whirlwind gaining preference over the Gloster design (which did make its first flights later) and decision not to keep the competing designs in parallel development. It's guesswork here, but the Gloster design seems like it would have been more straightforward to continue development with than the Whirlwind, particularly given the overall size and wing design (more likely able to actually supplant the Beaufighter in many of its duties -and more of the duties anticipated before the real performance limits of the Beaufighter were seen) but the upward firing cannon arrangement would need to be modified and internal fuel capacity would been to be increased for long range use. (not that the existing fuel would make it worse than the Typhoon or even Whirlwind)The original point was, for the development of the Gloster twin-engined fighter: "Two engines, where one would do, never sat well with the Ministry." In the time the Gloster twin was flying, and also the Whirlwind, there was no single engine in production that could both lift 4 cannons and provide enough performance to match what was offered by lighter armed fighters of the time.
The Typhoon was promised as a 450 mph (460 mph? wuzak - help) fighter, why produce a fighter that can do 360 mph? Typhoon might have had one powerplant, but that is two power sections coupled, with common set of accessories, so saying it is 'one engine' might raise an eyebrow. The Vulture, another engine for the Hawker fighter, was sometimes called 'double Peregrine' (it was not really).
American shift in policies regarding turbocharger export combined with shortages of P-38s in general pretty much nixed the potential there anyway. Even had the Lightning I been deemed satisfactory, unless P-38 production could have been ramped up dramatically sooner, it wouldn't have been viable for export.Lightning I and II was ordered by the AM. We can discuss pros and cons of the 'P-38 minus' and P-38, but it featured prominently in both British (both I and II) and French (only Mk.I) plans for purchase.
The Lightning is a complete red herring. It never saw service in the RAF and the order was cancelled. The Air Ministry showed interest in a lot of different aircraft that were never manufactured or purchased...so what?
The Beaufighter got lucky, performing roles other than its original intended role rather well. It was not the only aircraft to do this.
Wouldn't omitting turbos and intercoolers also save on weight? (assuming P-38J style fuel tanks weren't added)At 15000 ft, the P-38F was making 380 mph on 1325 HP (3000 rpm at 47 in Hg) and 350 mph on 1000 HP (2600 rpm and 38 in Hg). The 'P-38 minus', with ram effect and exhaust thrust calculated in, should be at some 1250 HP at 15000 ft - 370 mph? And a bit better with 'faster' supercharger that is available in second half of 1942.