Which aircraft would you cancel?

EKB said:

In late 1942 the British again sought to purchase P-38 Lightnings after RAF Beaufighter squadrons suffered heavy losses during the anti-shipping war in the Bay of Biscay. [/I]

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But they didn't purchase them. What exactly is your point ?

It was not within the power of the British Air Ministry to cancel production of the P-38. It was within its power to cancel orders for the type, and that's what it did.

Steve (confused and still seeing red herrings)

You have timing and program momentum affecting decisions.

A very simplified time line of British involvement goes something like:

Feb 1940-fabrication of on the 13 YP-38s is started.

March 1940, the British order 143 model 322s without turbos.

June 5 1940, US Approval is given for an additional 524 Lighting MK 2s for the British.

Aug 30 1940 the US orders 607 more P-38s than it had on order originally.

Sept 16 1940 First flight of a YP-38.
April 8 1941, British test a YP-38 at Wright Field Ohio, informally.
AUg 1941 sees 5 of the British 322s roll out the door, this does not mean delivered to the British.
Dec 1941 sees first British 322 arrive in England.
April 1942 has 3rd 322 arrive in England.
July 1942 has the 4th (and last) 322 arrive in England.
Aug 1942 sees the British Cancel the Lightning IIs.

There was over a two year difference between the placing of the initial orders and the Delivery of the aircraft, Had more of the 322s actually been sent to England. The British need for fighters had changed considerably in that time. By the end of Sept 1942 about 500 Typhoons had been delivered, Mustang Is were in Service as were Spitfire IXs, even if not in large numbers. The American need for fighters had also changed considerably. Planning was already under way for the North Africa invasion. Those 524 British Lighting IIs were built, the production line did not shut down for months or workers go home. The air frames were given different numbers and designations.

From Joe Baugher's website " Twenty-eight other British-ordered aircraft were completed as P-38F-13-LO for the USAAF, 121 as P-38F-15-LO, 174 as P-38G-13-LO, and 200 as P-38G-15-LO."

When we talk about canceling Program A or program B we should be aware how much time and money may have already been invested in such programs. Much like the Whirlwind. Decision to cancel was take months before a single one showed up in a service squadron yet they considered that enough material had already been assembled to a make it worthwhile to build 114 of them. material is not sheet aluminum that can be used on most anything but things like extrusions, forgings, landing gear legs, and other parts specific to a certain air frame. Cancel too late in the program and you have a lot of very expensive scrap and thousands of wasted man hours, not xxx numbers of an alternative airplane.

Coastal Command may have wanted P-38s to meet a temporary need but in 1942 and most of 1943 the US was practically rationing P-38s to it's own units. In Jan of 1943 General Kenney of 5th Air Force in the SW Pacific is placed on a replacement schedule of 15 P-38s a month. In Feb he is told that due to the situation in North Africa not to expect any until the summer. Kenney gets more planes after a personal trip to Washington but is told he will get no personnel for pilots and ground crew.
One wonders what the effect would have been if the British had taken delivery of even 1/2 of their Lighting IIs ?

US planners in particular had to be planning very far down the road as even planes sitting on the ramps outside the factory doors were weeks if not months from actually going into combat.

stona said:

But they didn't purchase them. What exactly is your point ?

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1) That RAF Coastal Command asked for P-38 Lightings but didn't get them.

2) That the Mosquito was not a solution for contending with the Fw 190 problem.

stona said:

It was not within the power of the British Air Ministry to cancel production of the P-38. It was within its power to cancel orders for the type, and that's what it did.

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Different time, Different day. There is no evidence that the British Air Ministry tried to block a Coastal Command request for P-38s.

EKB said:

2) That the Mosquito was not a solution for contending with the Fw 190 problem.

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The Mosquito wasn't designed as a fighter nor was it designed with the Fw190 in mind...

GrauGeist said:

The Mosquito wasn't designed as a fighter nor was it designed with the Fw190 in mind...

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I know that but the RAF employed the Mosquito as a fighter, with varied success, for both day and night operations.

EKB said:

That the Mosquito was not a solution for contending with the Fw 190 problem.

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According to this post (based on Shores' "Fighters Over Tunisia"), neither was the P-38. Seems like the Lightning suffered 2.85:1 kill deficit to the Me109 and 4.33:1 to the Fw190.

I've mentioned this before in another discussions, but a close family friend who was a Luftwaffe pilot (flew the Bf109 for the entirety of the war), said that of all the American fighters, the Lightning was the least of their concern.

It would be interesting if the P-40 or P-39 even made his list?

One can certainly understand the that between the P-38, P-47 and P-51 the P-38 being at the bottom of the pile. But in 1942 and early 1943 it was pretty much the P-38 or the P-39/P-40 and even the US wasn't dumb enough to think that the P-39/P-40 could survive against the Germans without help.

The 109 may have been able to evade the P-38s but the same could not be said of the German bombers and transports in North Africa, the Med and Italy.

EKB said:

1)There is no evidence that the British Air Ministry tried to block a Coastal Command request for P-38s.

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The Air Ministry wouldn't have had to "try." Since they were responsible for the production, purchase, and allocation of all airframes, if they said "no," Coastal Command would have gone without (as they did.)

buffnut453 said:

Seems like the Lightning suffered 2.85:1 kill deficit to the Me109 and 4.33:1 to the Fw190.

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By that logic, the Spitfire was not the answer to German fighters.


The Luftwaffe had a 4:1 kill ratio vs. RAF Fighter Command during the second half of 1941. More importantly, the RAF had far more combat experience than the USAAF.

Several Luftwaffe pilots have credited the P-38 for out-performing German fighters. But very few American pilots who served in North Africa had any previous contact with the enemy.



" the pilots who fought them said that the Lightnings were capable of appreciably tighter turns and that they would be on your tail before you knew what was happening. The machine guns mounted in the nose supposedly produced a concentration of fire from which there was no escape. Certainly the effect was reminiscent of a watering can when one these dangerous apparitions started firing tracer, and it was essential to prevent them from manoevering into a position from which they could bring their guns to bear …"

Johannes Steinhoff, JG 77
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" the P-38s could turn inside us with ease and they could go from level flight to climb almost instantaneously. We lost quite a few pilots who tried make an attack and then pull up. The P-38s were on them at once. They closed so quickly that there was little one could do except roll quickly and dive down, for while the P-38s could turn inside us, it rolled very slowly through the first 5 or 10 degrees of bank, and by then we would already be gone. One cardinal rule we never forgot was: avoid fighting a P-38 head-on. That was suicide. Their armament was so heavy and their firepower so murderous, that no one ever tried that type of attack more than once "

Franz Stiegler, JG 27
_______________________

" The P-38 was equal to our Bf 109G in performance and far superior in range "

Herbert Kaiser, JG 77
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" All we could do is admire the P-38s rate of climb. We simply couldn't keep up in our Fw 190A-8s "

Willi Reschke, JG 301
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" The P-38 had its positive attributes which we respected. At higher altitudes it was faster and could out-turn both the Focke-Wulf 190 and the Messerschmitt 109. It was faster in a dive, but this was probably due to it being a heavier aircraft. Our instructors stressed that American pilots were well-trained and very aggressive. Leutnant Anton 'Toni' Hafner was one of the veteran pilots I flew with, scoring 204 aerial victories before he was killed in October 1944. Toni said that the P-38 was a hard fighter to combat and was equal to the Me 109 in maneuverability. He respected the Lightning's nose armament, pointing out it was deadly when behind you. Toni was quite amazed at the beating it could take and remain flying, but the bottom line was: he always respected his counterpart, always!"

Horst Petzschler, JG 3

I truly wish I would have had the foresight to ask him better, detailed questions (along with all the other family and friends) but I never did...I was young and just assumed these guys would always be around.

However, I do recall his discussions when all the guys were sitting around BS'ing and he apparently was one of the lucky guys, as he was stationed in western Europe from the start and saw action briefly in the MTO. If he ever encountered a P-40 (which was my favorite plane back in those days), he never mentioned it.

GrauGeist said:

I've mentioned this before in another discussions, but a close family friend who was a Luftwaffe pilot (flew the Bf109 for the entirety of the war), said that of all the American fighters, the Lightning was the least of their concern.

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Ah yes, we have another man with no name story. Perhaps you could identify your "close family friend" along with the combat unit he served with.

Have a nice day.

kool kitty89 said:

Wouldn't omitting turbos and intercoolers also save on weight? (assuming P-38J style fuel tanks weren't added)

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The B-series turbos weighted some 135-145 lbs (link). Deleting two of them per each 'P-38 minus' saves 270-290 lbs, plus some plumbing and controls/regulators. However, the '(turbo-)supercharging' group in the P-38J weight breakdown is at 613.5 lbs. So we'd probably save some 400-450 lbs vs. earlier aircraft, and those ~600 lbs vs. later aircraft. We should also save a bit of drag because the top of the nacelle would've been devoid of small air intakes, just covered with sheet metal. Also the ram air intake would've gone from the side of the boom to the top of the engine.
Once the engines with 1200-1325 HP for take off are to be available, we'd might also add leading edge fuel tanks; fuel system of the P-38J was at ~506 lbs empty, with capacity for 410 US gals.

Edgar Brooks said:

The Air Ministry wouldn't have had to "try." Since they were responsible for the production, purchase, and allocation of all airframes, if they said "no," Coastal Command would have gone without (as they did.)

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Can you point us to the Air Ministry record showing that they, and not the USAAF, rejected an RAF Coastal Command request for Lockheed P-38s.

EKB said:

Ah yes, we have another man with no name story. Perhaps you could identify your "close family friend" along with the combat unit he served with.

Have a nice day.

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EKB, while I can appreciate your participation, I don't particularly appreciate your comment.

I come from a family with a tremendously long line of military service and they had a wide range of friends who likewise served. If I am making a statement about aircraft performance, I can quote a great uncle directly, who flew the P-38 (and P-39 AND P-36) with the Army Air Corps (later Army Air Force/USAF) and *if* the conversation dictates, I may (at my disgression) post his name (as I have in the past).

In this particular case, I was just passing on a sentiment and not statistics/specifications and such, so there is no need to post his name or his JG for your benefit, I leave his name out of the discussion out of respect to him and his family. The same can be said for a former co-worker of mine who was a SS Panzergrenadier.

If my answer isn't what you're looking for, well...too bad...

EKB said:

By that logic, the Spitfire was not the answer to German fighters.


The Luftwaffe had a 4:1 kill ratio vs. RAF Fighter Command during the second half of 1941. More importantly, the RAF had far more combat experience than the USAAF.

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You're comparing 2 different operational theatres with very different operating environments which makes any direct correlations impossible, indeed it's irrelevant to the point you originally made. I deliberately picked Tunisia because it's in the Mediterranean which is where you cited the P-38 would be the answer to the German fighters in that specific theatre. Clearly, the P-38 wasn't the answer in that theatre.

buffnut453 said:

You're comparing 2 different operational theatres with very different operating environments which makes any direct correlations impossible, indeed it's irrelevant to the point you originally made. I deliberately picked Tunisia because it's in the Mediterranean which is where you cited the P-38 would be the answer to the German fighters in that specific theatre. Clearly, the P-38 wasn't the answer in that theatre.

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I totally agree with this summary

Edgar Brooks said:

The Air Ministry wouldn't have had to "try." Since they were responsible for the production, purchase, and allocation of all airframes, if they said "no," Coastal Command would have gone without (as they did.)

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Air Ministry didn't have to say no very loud. I may be reading the story wrong but it looks like the request for P-38s came at the end of 1942 (or beginning of 1943?) which a number of months after they (Air Ministry) had "canceled" the order for MK II Lightnings (relinquished to the Americans might be a better term) so the Air Ministry had no Lightings to give Coastal Command and very little likelihood of getting any. Unless they could show an overwhelming need their 'request' would have gone to the bottom of the lend lease stack and delivery scheduled for months if not a year down the road.

buffnut453 said:

You're comparing 2 different operational theatres with very different operating environments which makes any direct correlations impossible, indeed it's irrelevant to the point you originally made. I deliberately picked Tunisia because it's in the Mediterranean which is where you cited the P-38 would be the answer to the German fighters in that specific theatre. Clearly, the P-38 wasn't the answer in that theatre.

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The US had the choice of 3/4 fighters for use in North Africa. The P-38s of several types which people claim were not the answer. They had the P-39, does anyone think they were the answer in North Africa? They had Allison powered P-40s, not seen at the time as being the answer. And they got the vast majority of the Merlin powered P-40s as they were thought at the time to be a better answer than the Allison powered models. Which may not be saying much.

That leaves the P-38 with essentially green pilots to protect the other American planes (fighter bombers, medium bombers and whatever heavies are in theater) and do the long range intercepts/patrols with F-5s doing photo recon.

The P-38 groups in England had only started going operational in the beginning of Sept 1942 and were being yanked from operations by the end of Oct to get ready for North Africa.

Now how many people believe that the same number of P-39 or P-40 squadrons with pilots of the same experience would have done any better against the Germans in North Africa?

EKB said:

Can you point us to the Air Ministry record showing that they, and not the USAAF, rejected an RAF Coastal Command request for Lockheed P-38s.

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Rather difficult, since Commands did not deal with the U.S.A.A.F., so a direct request was not, nor could be, made. Any requests were put through government channels to the British Air Commission, who actually dealt with the American administration.
The BAC requested 524 Lightning Mk.II, in August 1942, but the request was cancelled, so the U.K. only ever received 24 Mk.I which were reported as having "certain nasty aerodynamic habits," plus a single P-38J, 44-23517, which was transferred in-theatre (U.K.)