Which country designed the best engines for WWII?

Which country designed the best aircraft engines for WWII?


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(if I may)

SR6, I have seen all 4 side-by-side in a museum (Jumo 211F, DB 605, Merlin and Allison), and I have no doubt that both the Merlin and the Allison can be fitted "tighter". Especially the Allison is much more compact that the DB 605A.

There aint such thing as a free lunch.
The V-1710 that is more compact than DB 605A develops less power at altitude. On the other hand, the 2-stage V-1710, that have had a comparable power as a contemporary DB 605 was not a compact engine, certainly no more compact than the 605.


Yes indeed, the Germans made the self-inflicted wound when opted for high CR. Curtails the allowable boost too much, hence much less power will be made, for a small trade-off in ways of consumption and momentary increase of power. The reliability of the engines that puched the CR was low for many months, eg. with DB 601N or BMW 801D (although the 801C had also severe reliability issues).
RR was an established producer of not just commercial and military engines in 1920s-30s, but also the racing engines. They got much more experience in this time than DB, and were able to put that experience on the engines being developed from mid-1930s on. Then we also have a thing of the crystal ball - how sure was in second half of 1930s that hi-oct fuel will be available on wide scale?
German engines worked just fine when fueled by hi-oct fuel, BTW.


Stating that something was wrong with the basic design of the said German engines is a majorization, as is the latest sentence. Eg. the Yugoslav AF operated their second-hand Bf 109Gs until 1954, by what time they grounded their Yaks and Spitfires.
Also, stating that " to DB all major power increases came though increased displacement" is misleading. The DB 601E was making 40% more power than DB 600, without increase in displacement, and without change in fuel. DB 605D in 1945 was making 50% more power than DB 605A in 1942, granted much of the power increase was due to introduction of water injection and hi-oct fuel. Or, DB 605D was making 100% more power than DB 600 even while the displacement went up by less than 10%.
Jumo, with 211 series of engines, indeed went for refining the design. In order to match DB 603 and surpas DB 605 they went for a whole new engine, the 213.
 
SR6, I have seen all 4 side-by-side in a museum (Jumo 211F, DB 605, Merlin and Allison), and I have no doubt that both the Merlin and the Allison can be fitted "tighter". Especially the Allison is much more compact that the DB 605A.

The thing is that all four engines were interchangeable from a functional point of view, they needed different engine mounts, cowls and intake ducts but all were of similar widths and heights (length varied due to superchargers, gearing and propshafts) and very similar weights. Any air frame that would take one would take the others without a lot of work, at least for test flying. It's not like trying to stick a Griffon in a P-40 or a DB 603 in a 109.

I believe I said "With 87 octane fuel the Germans had little choice....." the British got better fuel as the Merlin evolved, they sure weren't using 87 octane at 12lbs boost. Germans started with 1.40 ata for take-off for 1 minute only. 5 minute rating was using 1.3ata or about 4 1/2lbs boost on the DB series. The Germans may not have been able to use the rich mixture response of some fuels due to the fuel injection. The really rich mixtures used call for a considerable increase in fuel flow. different injector pumps or pistons could have been fitted but might not have been right for idle or cruise. The larger diameter German pistons might also have given cooling trouble (the piston failure) P & W having troubles with the Hornet B (1860 ci) compared to the Hornet A (1690 ci) back around 1930. The Hornet A was licensed to become the BMW 132. How much DB was influenced to go for better fuel economy I don't know.


Very few DB 600s or Jumo 211 were used in commercial service. The BMW was a licensed Hornet A and The Bramo radial was a rather convoluted development of a Bristol Jupiter. The only other German engines to see much commercial use were the BMW and Jumo V-12s that were essentially two WW I straight 6s on a common crankshaft and the Junkers diesel. Not really recipes for outstanding reliability.

More later.
 
I would note that Sweden built about 170 Saab 18 twin engine bombers with mostly Swedish built DB 605 engines after the war (last Saab 18 built in 1948?) and these continued in service until the late 50s. The earlier version using P & W R-1830s lasted until 1959 but that may have had more to do with the greater availability of spare parts for the R-1830 in the late 50s.
Another 298 Saab 21 single engine fighters were built using DB 605 engines from 1945 (production versions) to 1949. These were phased out of service between 1949 (first batch built) and 1954.

It would be interesting to see what kind of service the Swedes got out of their DB 605s, which BTW, were never rated at over 1475hp take-off and 1575 hp at 7000ft/2100 meters and were run on 91/96 or 91/98 grades fuel.
One has to note that Sweden obtained a DH Goblin II jet engine and the license to build them right after WW II (1946 or 47) and had a prototype Saab 21 jet flying in 1947 and Swedish built jet engines were flying in 1950 so it would appear that had Sweden wished to it could have gotten Merlins during this time frame. Perhaps it was budgets or timing but if the DB 605s were really that terrible as far as overhaul life or broken part failures go you would think the Swedes would have done something.
 
Indeed. The most important German engines don't have the book of size & scope that 'Vee's for victory' is for the V-1710.
 
I blame the "Luft46" crowd for the poor situation on German piston engine books. The same group is responsible for the situation in which we have detailed books on aircraft like the He 162 while not a single good technical book exists on the Ju 87.
 
The ww2 aero engines are perhaps to much of a 'niche', and that means there is a small potential costumer base. So people with knowledge will rather write books about stuff that sells.
We can also take a look at what Calum was writting on his Facebook page, where the perspective publisher wanted fromm him to make the book more appealing to the wider audience by diluting the technicalities, so that publisher was discarded.

There is a book dealing with Junkers piston and jet engines in German, but it is out of print and cost plenty of money. BMW's book about their aero engines is a good start, but it again just scratches the surface (also available on English). The "Flugmotoren und Strahltriebwerke" book is very good, but unfortunately (from my point of view) wastes too much space for jet engines.

The situation about English-language covering of German engines is a sad story indeed, while the vast amout of original German dana and Allied dana is still in the archives. We can just hope that Calum's book is published.

Another bright point is that Germans are working with Russian archivists with captured German docs located in Russia, so that might be a gold mine for future researchers. The number of pages of the ww2 German docs in Russia is between 2 and 2.5 milions. link
 
I would state that LC engines were dead ends and not deserving of greatness when compared to the many Air Cooled radials out there.
 
I agree almost completely! The one point of difference is the alloy used which was much stronger than they used before.
 
All true! but all other planes had maddening engine controls but the Fw-190/BMW-801!
 
This one got me too!
 
No other LC Engine cooling system in any WW-II plane in service, comps favorably to the P-51! None! The leading edge installations are junk, if you judge them honestly. But none of the LC engines matched the tightly cowled R-2800 in the big Republic experimental XP-47J that went 505 MPH! The P-82 was faster than the Hornet by any measure. Heck, the late model P-38 was faster than the Hornet at higher altitudes! It was also faster when toting TWO Torpedoes! But wait, the Hornet can not carry TWO torps!
 
No, negative cooling drag is not possible by using ejector exhausts. No WW-II plane in service had a lower cooling drag installation than the P-51! None! See article in NASA's trade mag back in the '80s!
 
Really great post!
 
Without wanting open a very wriggly can of worms again German fuel scientists produced fuel that was no better or worse than Allied fuel scientists. Just because the Hydrocarbons came from Coal not Oil doesnt mean German fuel was worse.
Well, yes it does! It's not the Hydro-Carbons that make the differences, it's the aromatic compounds and Tetra-Ethel Lead that make the real differences and the Germans were years behind everyone else!
 
Lets look at the Spit/Merlin combo;
The Spit was barely competitive with the Me-109 over England, with K/L ratios about 1.2/1, mainly because of throttle limits imposed by the return trip on the Germans. When the Spit/Merlin flew across the channel to France, they had their collective butts handed to them on a silver platter with K/L Ratios of 4.5/1 to 7/1! This state of things never got better for the Spit/Merlin.
Then there is the P-47. IIRC, it was the second best Allied killer of the war, but much more reliable and durable than the P-51, or the Spit for that matter. It was also very much harder to shoot down than any of the LC Engine planes and flown into a tremendously more dangerous environment. Given those facts, it's hard to argue for lessor planes scoring better on the heart's desire meter!
 
This is a neat argument as no car on the road today can match the power/weight/TBO of a WW-II aero engine. They can make more power per unit of displacement, but not much more power per unit of piston crown area. Then when modern car engines are run at power levels that a WW-II engine can last 2000+ hours, they grenade in minutes! See the trouble that the modified car engines into airplane engines have had over the last fifty years or so! I've seen twenty or thirty come and go at Oshkosh over the last four or five decades. If they could make the numbers they claim, why do they all go out of business?
I have a friend who has a $45,000 Honda four cylinder, turbo engine that makes almost 1,000 HP, or so the time slips and Quarter Jr computer program states, but it is not nearly as fast as my 656HP Ram-Jet 572 from the roll on and certainly has not lasted so long either. But if it was required to last 2000 hours TBO and have a flat rated altitude of 41,000' it would have about 100 HP! ( Just guessing since I do not know the internal dimensions!)
 

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