Which country designed the best engines for WWII?
- Thread starter Soundbreaker Welch?
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Venturi
Airman
The point is, more power per unit of displacement, across a wider power band. I have a 3.2L straight 6 that makes 330hp at 8,000rpm (it's a BMW). That's 1/3 of the power a V1710 made in its initial form. It's apples to oranges, yes... but what could BMW do with today's tech in a 27L aero engine today. I am not arguing that you can use an actual car engine and make WW2 aero-V12 HP out of it...
Anyways, besides the point, really.
Deleted member 68059
Staff Sergeant
- 1,058
- Dec 28, 2015
Hi,
Germans fuels scientists knew everything that Ethyl Corp & all the other companies knew about TEL, Aniline, Aromatics, Benzene, Toluene, etc etc etc - because it was all discovered decades before 1939, and had been published in scientific journal articles available to anyone (I can supply references if you require them).
TEL had been first tested by Midgeley in 1922.
Not to mention that one of the men responsible for major fuel advances (Francis Rodwell Banks), the British fuels expert who had helped RR win the Schneider Trophy contests AND the Italians sort out their dual V12 record engine plane, had been invited (and went!) to Germany before WW2 to consult with their aviation industry.
In fact much of what was developed at Wright-Field and at the Thornton Laboratories in England about fuels, and the methods to test them against detonation, had all been published in German on 30/12/1936 by Phillipovic and Seeber in a paper by the "Deutscheversusanstalt für Luftfahrt - Forschungsberichte FB737 - "Uber das Verhalten der Kraftstoffe bee Uberladung" ** (the two men at the centre of German ww2 Fuels research at IG Farben and others)....it was not until about 1941 that US and British scientists caught up with GERMANY on fuel test science. This paper was the first time that it was really demonstrated how much knock varied with air/fuel ratio, and resulted in the "DVL Supercharge Method" and the "Oppauer" fuel test process. Which the Allies didnt catch up with for years. (Luftverhaltnis (the "x" axis) means air/fuel ratio and Nutzdruck (the "y" axis") means Brake Mean Effective Pressure - 18 Bar BMEP is 261PSI; which means in a Merlin it makes 1650bhp, I have German WW2 fuel tests with fuels they never fought with giving 320PSI BMEP - which is in a Merlin at 3000rpm a 2000bhp rating, before you start any games with water or Anline. So fuels science was not lacking in Germany).
https://scontent.fman2-2.fna.fbcdn....=5c0d67b4370546220a63bb0018b23134&oe=58F515CF
What is very easy to confuse, is what was USED in combat, and what was known about, developed and waiting but not able to be produced in volume due to supply problems. It is an important distinction. Unfortunately (and I am very sympathetic about this) unless you can read German, and know where to look - these facts are not easily available. A very good reason why almost nothing useful has been written about them in English since.
If you want to know some more details about German fuels, you can read this:
Race Engine Technology – Issue 098 | High Power Media
and if you can read German, the Fischer-Tropsch archives have a fair bit of useful original German documents.
Fischer-Tropsch Archive
Regards
C.
** "The behavior of fuels during detonation" (or overboosting...difficult translation !)
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Venturi
Airman
I hope your book is not only about "der Deutsche Fleugzeugmotor", but also other countrys' - sounds interesting at this point, but the comparison is really where its at
I am always on the lookout for good books on WWII aeroengines. Have you read LJK Setright's "The Power to Fly"?
A good read, even if he is weirdly prejudiced against the Allison.
Setright's book is tad on the expensive side, at 600 USD
I was just shuddering at the cost of "Vee's for Victory"!
Have you read Victor Bingham's book "Major piston aero engines of WWII" or Allied Aircraft Piston Engines of World War II
by Graham White both are a bit more reasonable.
Keep an eye out, Setright's book varies wildly in price - I got a copy for £75 not so long ago.
Thanks for the tip. I need to get one or two books on the Merlin ( from the RR historic trust) and White's book about the R-2800. So far I have the 'Vee's', 'Flugmotoren & Strahltriebwerke' and the book about the BMW aero engines (got the German version, since it was half the price of the English-language version).
Shortround6
Major General
I have both, and have mixed feelings about them.
"Major piston aero engines of WWII" has some good information but tends to get off track at times. A book on engines doesn't need a table/chart of the characteristics of some of the aircraft the engines were used in. the Chapter on DB engines (included 600, 601, 605, 603, 606, 610 and mentions a few others) is 7 1/2 pages for instance with 10 illustrations. Using several column inches to have a table/chart on the Me 410 doesn't really add anything. Chapter on the Jumo 211 starts with one paragraph on the Jumo 210 and ends with the Jumo 213, it is six pages but includes a 1/2 page cutaway drawing of the He 111H-2, nice but adds zip to knowledge of the Jumo series of engines.
The book is also plagued with mis-prints and typos to the point where one is hesitant to use it as a source without double checking the numbers.
There are a number of good chapters however. The 9 pages on the Hercules contains a lot of details, along with a 1/2 page cutaway of the MK III Halifax.
Allied Aircraft Piston Engines of World War II has a lot of good information but in the charts listing each model of a particular type engine fails to give the altitude at which military power could be maintained to while including such things as change in type of magneto or carburetor.
It does have a good chapter on turbo-chargers though.
"Major piston aero engines of WWII" has some good information but tends to get off track at times. A book on engines doesn't need a table/chart of the characteristics of some of the aircraft the engines were used in. the Chapter on DB engines (included 600, 601, 605, 603, 606, 610 and mentions a few others) is 7 1/2 pages for instance with 10 illustrations. Using several column inches to have a table/chart on the Me 410 doesn't really add anything. Chapter on the Jumo 211 starts with one paragraph on the Jumo 210 and ends with the Jumo 213, it is six pages but includes a 1/2 page cutaway drawing of the He 111H-2, nice but adds zip to knowledge of the Jumo series of engines.
The book is also plagued with mis-prints and typos to the point where one is hesitant to use it as a source without double checking the numbers.
There are a number of good chapters however. The 9 pages on the Hercules contains a lot of details, along with a 1/2 page cutaway of the MK III Halifax.
Allied Aircraft Piston Engines of World War II has a lot of good information but in the charts listing each model of a particular type engine fails to give the altitude at which military power could be maintained to while including such things as change in type of magneto or carburetor.
It does have a good chapter on turbo-chargers though.
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Very true, but some good photos and line drawings. I was rather disappointed by Rubra's book by the way
Have you a copy of Herschel Smith's "History of Aircraft Piston engines"? He does not seem to be a great fan of DB - citing the roller main bearings and the dry liners in the early 601's.
What he does not seem to have a clue about is why BMW switched from LC to radials at the same time that DB started to make the DB600/1 series.
I would speculate that it was because BMW were making a fortune supplying BMW 132 engines for Ju52's and DB were told to get designing aero engines by the RLM - but I cannot find any evidence whatsoever. But both decisions were very relevant to the OP's starting question!
Shortround6
Major General
Yes, I have that book but each chapter is on a type of engine, one chapter on rotary engines, one chapter on small radial, one chapter on large radials. one on separate cylinder inline (v-12 engines) one on cast block engines and so on so each country or company only gets a very few pages in any chapter. BMW did make at least one cast block engine if not two in the early 30s but the one that had the most work done was similar to the Jumo 210 in size/power. Having 3 companies building competing inverted V-12 liquid cooled engines and nobody building large radials was probably not a good idea.
That's what I am surprised by. The BMW VI (BMW VI - Wikipedia) was probably the most successful of the 20's to early 30's German V12's and yet BMW switched to making P&W's under license.
Is "BMW Aero Engines: Milestones in aviation from the beginnings to the present" the book that Tomo was recommending?
Shortround6
Major General
Problem was the BMW VI was little more than two BMW in line sixes from WW I running on a common crankshaft.
Large and slow running but very light for displacement. Yes, the Russians turned it in the AM34/35 and later but tossing the whole thing out and starting over was probably the better way to go.
That is one I am not familiar with so we will have to wait for Tomo.
This is the book I have. It is not very much packed with data, more of a good start about the BMW aero engines.BTW, the English language version in Abebooks is with favorable price.
Cheers Tomo, I will start to look out for it on bargain offers!
While we are talking references, have you read
Development of Aircraft Engines / Aviation Fuels: Two Studies of Relations between Gov't and Industry
Schlaifer, Robert; Heron, S. D.
Worth keeping an eye out for since it is another where the prices asked vary considerably.
While we are talking references, have you read
Development of Aircraft Engines / Aviation Fuels: Two Studies of Relations between Gov't and Industry
Schlaifer, Robert; Heron, S. D.
Worth keeping an eye out for since it is another where the prices asked vary considerably.
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Shortround6
Major General
Got an old library copy on E bay a few years back. Not the best shape but readable price was certainly reasonable.
price was certainly reasonable.
Venturi
Airman
You get what you pay for, Vees is remarkable.
