Which double-engined aircraft of WWII, with piston engines was the fastest one?

[wmaxt]

Dragndog,

If you look at my post you will notice that I specifically said that drag would be to high for the P-38 to go that fast at 30,000ft.

The 440mph was realized between 20,000ft and 23,000 which would be possible for the P-38.

I have only Lockheed data on this speed and though this data was only revealed in the 1980's, never used as a sales tool and Lockheed data has proven reliable and accurate over the years I have never found corroborating data from a second source to confirm it.

The fact romaines that there were faster twin engine fighters in WW2 primarily the Hornet which I think was capable of speeds slightly over 450mph.

Bill

 

[Vincenzo]

DH Hornet as WW II fighter... i think we can account it as prototype not as fighter

 

[iron man]

I'll bite - your concept is sound, I can only guess production and operational costs (a twin vs. a single engine aircraft) and possible C/G issues based on the C/G vs. MAC would prohibit this. Without computing the actual weight and balance it's hard to determine how this aircraft will perform during all flight regimes.

It's an interesting idea (for the immediate needs of the Jagdwaffe) and I'd really like to find someone who has any evidence that such a proposal was considered...a missed opportunity on the part of the RLM if it wasn't studied. Even with a reduced battery of 4 x 151/20's (firing "M" shells) it's altitude performance might well have been a better option than the overloaded 190's historically employed. Sucks up a lot of the DB 605 production though. Hang two Jumo 213's on those wings in 1943, and it's a whole different matter.

But this won't happen until the "emergency fighter programme" makes productive effort at Jumo available to the needs of the Jagdwaffe.
And the beat goes on...La-de-dah-de-de...La-de-dah-de-dah.

Thanks for commenting!

 

[drgondog]

Clostermann in "The Big Show" recounts an encounter with a Do335 while flying his Tempest. Diving at "almost 500 MPH" he could only watch as the Jerrie flew away untouched. I read a story by a Dornier test pilot about what is likely the same encounter where the pilot claimed similar speed in his escape. He was in an unarmed prototype, so the top speed may have been more than an operational fighter could have achieved.

357FS/355FG Randolph Cooper scored heavily on a Do 335 south of Magdeburg before it slipped into cloud cover 4-04-45.

 

[drgondog]

Dragndog,

If you look at my post you will notice that I specifically said that drag would be to high for the P-38 to go that fast at 30,000ft.

No - you said it would be "getting into compressibility". The aero definition of compressibilty is the regime in which density of air begins to increase with velocity. (i.e. d(Rho)/dV>0) That regime is approximately .3M. Drag Divergence is when local velocity over the airfoil approaches supersonic - usually at max t/c (i.e for P-38 approximately 25%, for P-51 ~ 45%). Transonic is when the shock wave forms at max velocity point on the airfoil. Supersonic is when the entire wing is immersed in supersonic flow and shock waves occur at leading and trailing edge.

The 440mph was realized between 20,000ft and 23,000 which would be possible for the P-38.

Maybe, maybe not. Have never seen flight test report above 426mph at 26000 - only the Lockheed data with no underlying parameters regarding weight, Hp, surface prep, recorded and converted TAS, etc. Ditto for Roll rates and rate of Climb in that condition. You noted similar experience with the data.

I have only Lockheed data on this speed and though this data was only revealed in the 1980's, never used as a sales tool and Lockheed data has proven reliable and accurate over the years I have never found corroborating data from a second source to confirm it.

The fact romaines that there were faster twin engine fighters in WW2 primarily the Hornet which I think was capable of speeds slightly over 450mph.

Bill

Agreed, although I suspect the F7F was also faster..and the Do 335 was certainly faster.

 

[krieghund]

Here's a better scan of the Do-335 speeds,

 

[GregP]

It doesn't matter what 2 or 4 prototypes did in the speed department. It only matters if the prototypes went into production and had an impact on the war. The entire Ta-152 program was nothing. They only delivered less than 50, so who cares? They did NOTHING.

Though I am from the U.S.A., the P-51H doesn't matter either since, though it entered the war, it didn't see combat. If we allow protypes, I like the P-51J at 487 mph .... but it was PROTOTYPE, not a war machine. Again, it doesn't matter as it had no war impact.

From my perspective, admittedly probably not yours, confine you inquireies to types that had at least 300 - 500 produced and DEPLOYED, and you might have something to talk about. The rest were pipe dreams that never saw fruition. Nobody much cares about what the prototypes promised except maybe me (I love obscure aircraft), they care about what actually happened. Of the production AND non-production prototype fighters, I believe the fastest were, in order:

1. Suklhoi Su-5 at 503.4 mph
2. Republic XP-72 at 502.8 mph
3. North American P-51H at 487 mph
4. Supermarine Spiteful at 482.9 mph
5. Supermarine Seafang at 474.8 mph

The real Dornier Do-335 went 474.8 mph tops and was never delivered with souped-up engines, so it never went 490+ mph, even in prototype form, except in a dive. The Sea Hornet 472.3 mph in real life. The real Ta-152H-1 went 472 mph.

If we limit ourselves to PRODUCTION aircraft, the list gets much slower. I don't consider 43 aircraft production, so the Ta-152's are out. The Su-5 is out, the XP-72 is out; the Spiteful is out, and the Seafang is out. The P-51H is IN since they made 555, but NOT in WWII, so it's out, too. The F4U-5 was fast, but was not a WWII bird, so it doesn't count either.

That leaves the Republic P-47N at 466.7 mph as the fastest OPERATIONAL fighter of the war, if we ignore the hype of "what ifs" and "might have beens."

People claim all sorts of things, but the REAL fighters were NEVER faster than the P-47N when it was at it's best altitude.

Of course, if we look at the speed versus altitude charts, we can find SOME altitude where fighter "X" was faster than fighter "Y," but the top speed is what we are looking at in here .... I assume, and the speed versus altitude charts don't exist for most prototypes.

So, please get away from the prototypes and look at planes that were operational with regular units in numbers of more than a few hundred and you may find what you seek. Prototypes only flew fast with factory or military test pilots at the controls, and usually with special souped-up engines and special surface preparation. They were waxed and prepared, not operational fighters that sat out in the elements for several month or years. If you want fast REAL fighters, look to the P-47N and you HAVE it.

No operational Luftwaffe plane was faster, but they WERE very close. If we ignore anything less than, say, 5 mph, we have a group that was about equal.

1. P-47N at 466.7 mph
2. Hawkewr Sea Fury at 459.9 mph (not sure if it qualifies as a WWII aircraft)
3. Grumman F8F-2 Bearcat at 455 mph (not sure if it qualifies as a WWII aircraft)
4. Chance-Vought F4U-4 Corsair at 446.2 mph (definitely qualifies)
5. Messerschmitt Me 109K at 442 or 443 mph or so
6. Hawker Tempest V at 441.2 mph (definitely qualifies)
7. Fw 190D at 438 mph

The first German plane I find, excluding jets with more than 200+ made and also fast was the Me 109K at 442 or 443 mph or so. If you want to argue speeds, please have original sources, and show that more than 250 were made and DEPLOYED for WWII wartime operations.

No jets, we're talking pistons here.

 

[cimmex]

Wasn't the question "Which double-engined aircraft of WWII, with piston engines was the fastest one?"
Cimmex

 

[DonL]

To say the TA 152H was a prototype a/c is historical wrong!

It went in mass production and has left the prototype status. The course of war avoided a proper production but not the stage of development of the a/c. It is totaly unimportant how many were produced or the impact on the war, it is important which status of development was reached and the TA 152H was clearly a lot ahead of it's development status to be called prototype! It was a fully developed fighter a/c which went in mass production. That's the historical facts!

 

[drgondog]

Greg - NAA stopped production of the P-51H in October, 1945. Approximately 300 were produced before end of WWII.

 

[Vincenzo]

Su-5 was a mixed propulsion so if jet are not admit neither the Su-5 (and afaik the speed was 793 km/h)
for the XP-72 i've read somewhere that never go over 500 mph
for the P-51H 487 mph is a estimated speed, probably true speed is around 470 mph
Seafang first flew is in june '46
Sea fury were prototypes at WWII end
The variant deployed, but not combat, in WWII was F8F-1

 

[wuzak]

Hey Greg, what's with the decimal point in speeds? Just a conversion legacy?

Of the production AND non-production prototype fighters, I believe the fastest were, in order:

1. Suklhoi Su-5 at 503.4 mph
2. Republic XP-72 at 502.8 mph
3. North American P-51H at 487 mph
4. Supermarine Spiteful at 182.9 mph
5. Supermarine Seafang at 474.8 mph

The real Dornier Do-335 went 474.8 mph tops and was never delivered with souped-up engines, so it never went 490+ mph, even in prototype form, except in a dive. The Sea Hornet 472.3 mph in real life. The real Ta-152H-1 went 472 mph.

I assume that the Spiteful speed was meant to be 483mph. That was actually for the production version, though not many were made. I believe the prototype, which flew during the war, went 494mph.

The de Havilland Hornet prototype managed 491mph, also during the war. However, production versions were down to 472mph, and Sea Hornets less. And they were all very much post war.

One of the Hawker Fury prototypes was fitted with a Napier Sabre VII and annular radiator and managed 485mph. That may have been post war, though. As was the annular radiator conversion of a Tempest V, which did 465mph. The Tempest I flew in 1943 and managed 466mph.

So, please get away from the prototypes and look at planes that were operational with regular units in numbers of more than a few hundred and you may find what you seek. Prototypes only flew fast with factory or military test pilots at the controls, and usually with special souped-up engines and special surface preparation. They were waxed and prepared, not operational fighters that sat out in the elements for several month or years. If you want fast REAL fighters, look to the P-47N and you HAVE it.

No operational Luftwaffe plane was faster, but they WERE very close. If we ignore anything less than, say, 5 mph, we have a group that was about equal.

1. P-47N at 466.7 mph
2. Hawkewr Sea Fury at 459.9 mph (not sure if it qualifies as a WWII aircraft)
3. Grumman F8F-2 Bearcat at 455 mph (not sure if it qualifies as a WWII aircraft)
4. Chance-Vought F4U-4 Corsair at 446.2 mph (definitely qualifies)
5. Messerschmitt Me 109K at 442 or 443 mph or so
6. Hawker Tempest V at 441.2 mph (definitely qualifies)
7. Fw 190D at 438 mph

You may have missed a couple Greg.

The Spitfire XIV was rated at 448mph. The Spitfire 21, which entered service in early 1945, was good for 454mph.

The F8F-2 did not enter service until 1946 or 1947. Teh F8F-1 did enter service just before the end of WW2.

 

[GregP]

Hi Wuzak,

Yeah, it is a conversion legacy and should be rounded down to the nearest whole number.

The Ta-152 never made production. They delivered between 43 and 47 aircraft to operational units depending on whom you believe, and there were never more than 25 operational at any one time. At the war's end in Europe, therre were exactly two Ta-152c's operational. That sort of defines a service prototype. Many people claim thay built 150 - 200, but only the 43 - 47 were ever delivered and flew in the war. I don't count non-flying partial airframes as aircraft. An aircraft must be able to fly, not look good on the ground.

I know the SU-5 was a prototype, and was mixed power, and that is why I went away from prototypes and went to production aircraft. The prototypes are interesting but contributed nothing to the war. I believe I said to go with production planes ...

Yup, typo on the Spiteful speed; 483 mph! You might have noticed I am a bit dislexic as a typist ...

I realize the P-51H was built mostly during the war, but never actually saw combat, so I tend to discount it as a "WWII" fighter. The war was years long and a fighter that never fought is hardly representative of a production, deployed fighter aircraft, even if my country made it. It is disingenuous to bring in planes, even production planes, that didn't fight in the war and compare them with the planes that actually fought and made a difference in the war.

As far a a twin goes, I'd nominate the Heinkel He-219 as one of the fastest, certainly faster than rank and file production Mosquitos. There may well have been variants of the reliable Mossie that were faster than the He-219, but the rank anf file Mosquitos were simply not faster. Of course, the He-219 is almost a footnote since it was primarily a night fighter and was never employed in missions similar to the Mosquito in any numbers, but about 283 were produced and that qualifies as production. It was also deployed and fought, though obviously not in any great numbers since there were so few made.

I'd mention the Grumman F7F Tigercat, but that would be disingenuous, too since it didn't see combat in WWII despite being delivered durning the war. It is the Navy twin analogy to the P-51H. Technically it could be said to count as a WWII fighter, but never really fought during the war.

I'm trying to be practical and fair here, and not count low-run planes that didn't really fight in the war. There is no disputing that planes like the Ta-152 were delivered, but they were delivered in numbers so low that they were simply not a factor. You must realize that the Ta-152's only flew until they broke ... tehre was NO pipeline of spare parts and no logistical center for repair. If they broke and could be fixed easily, they were. If not, they were rendered non-operational. That's why only two Ta-152c's were left operational at the war's conclusion in Europe ... no spare parts from which to draw.

There is NOTHING wrong with the Ta-152 other than normal prototype teething problems; I really like it. But it wasn't a production aircraft to me and didn't make much of a contribution to the war. In WWII, German pilots were awarded 62,218 victory claims. I believe the Ta-152 series accounted for two to seven of these, depending on whom you believe. Let's be fair and put the number right in the middle of the claims, and say it was about 4.5 victories. Like I said, it made no impact and almost no contribution relative to the rest of the German Luftwaffe. So I discount it as a factor even though I personally like the aircraft, especially the H model.

 

[DonL]

This is no TA 152 Thread!

All of the TA 152 could be read at Eich's or from Mr. Hartmann's book.

I believe serious researched books more then your personal opinion, also I believe Rechlin tests more then your personal opinion.

Your facts about the TA 152 (speed, kill ratio and production) are wrong, proved from good researched books and original tests.

The TA 152H went in mass production, the TA 152 C never went in mass production. Please read a well researched book instead of posting opinions then facts.

 

[riacrato]

GregP, what the hell are you talking about? The Ta 152 H reached frontline units in January 1945. It drew blood and was itself shot down a few times. That makes it an operational aircraft of WWII in any book anyone with a right mind has ever written. Period.

That's why only two Ta-152c's were left operational at the war's conclusion in Europe ... no spare parts from which to draw.

The Ta 152 C breaking and not being used due to spare parts? There isn't even any conclusive evidence the type ever flew with operational units at all! Are you just making up stuff to support your agenda here?

 

[DonL]

As far a a twin goes, I'd nominate the Heinkel He-219 as one of the fastest, certainly faster than rank and file production Mosquitos. There may well have been variants of the reliable Mossie that were faster than the He-219, but the rank anf file Mosquitos were simply not faster. Of course, the He-219 is almost a footnote since it was primarily a night fighter and was never employed in missions similar to the Mosquito in any numbers, but about 283 were produced and that qualifies as production. It was also deployed and fought, though obviously not in any great numbers since there were so few made.

Here you have forgotten the P38 which was definitely faster especially the later modells.
Also I have my doubts that the He 219 was faster then the Ju 88 G6 or the Me 410, the fastest modells of the He 219 were the He 219 A6, which were a special mini extreme light series to hunt Mosquitos (with average success).This proved that the Moussie was as fast or faster.
The He 219 A6 was rated between 640-650km/h, Eric Brown clocked something about 640km/h with a Ju 88G6 (Jumo 213A with MW50).

Personally I'm not convinced that the He 219 played in the same league as the Ju 88 G and the Mosquitos, because at the end of the war the Ju 88 showed much more development potential. The Ju 88 G7 with the Jumo 213 E (same as in the Tank 152H) was at this time better and more reliable then the DB 603 L/LA. This was also shown by the latest He 219 A7/R5 modell, which were converted to Jumo 213.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

1. Lets keep it civil!

2. Lets get back on the topic of this thread.

Everyone understand? If not, please let me know so that we can clarify it.

 

[Denniss]

Also I have my doubts that the He 219 was faster then the Ju 88 G6 or the Me 410, the fastest modells of the He 219 were the He 219 A6, which were a special mini extreme light series to hunt Mosquitos (with average success).This proved that the Moussie was as fast or faster.
The He 219 A6 was rated between 640-650km/h, Eric Brown clocked something about 640km/h with a Ju 88G6 (Jumo 213A with MW50).

Personally I'm not convinced that the He 219 played in the same league as the Ju 88 G and the Mosquitos, because at the end of the war the Ju 88 showed much more development potential. The Ju 88 G7 with the Jumo 213 E (same as in the Tank 152H) was at this time better and more reliable then the DB 603 L/LA. This was also shown by the latest He 219 A7/R5 modell, which were converted to Jumo 213.

There was no He 219 A-6 built but aircraft may have been stripped at the unit level for the same effect. The He 219 A-7 with DB 603E engine was the fastest He 219. There were five He 219D with Jumo 213 but they never gor their 213E to work properly. BTW there was no Ju 88 G-7 either, there were some Ju 88 G-6 fitted with 213E but this may have been more experimental.

 

[GregP]

I thought I'd leave the P-38 to our friend Lightning ... I like it and enjoy it every time ours flies. We're working on a P-38 engine right now. It was fast, I think not generally faster than the He-219.

Sorry, 43 to 47 aircraft does NOT qualify as mass production in a reasnable person's book. I KNOW the Ta-152 history and don't need any more than my 5 - 6 books I already have, and I have already been reminded this is not a Ta-152 thread, so I'll just drop the Ta-152. Suffice to say I am a fan, but not a big fan. If you feel differently, then OK. Oh, the two Ta-152c's left operational at the end of the war in Europe is from William Green. He never said they flew operationally. He said they were operational at the end of the war. That means they could be started and flown, nothing more. I have never heard that these two aircraft were NOT operational except for you. That makes you an uncorroborated source for me.

Hey, if YOU feel 25 - 50 airplanes qualifies as production, then draw your own conlcusions. I simply don't think it qualifies as production, and you won't change my mind. To me, production has to result in a reasonable number of airplanes, and 50 just doesn't get it for me. If it does for you, then OK, enjoy it. For me, real war fighters equipped several units or more, not just an airfiled. I wouldn't even count the P-40 if just the AVG had operated it ... but it was operated widely and certainly qualifies as a real WWII combat aircraft.

In fact, that's why I discount the Finish experiecnce with the Buffalo, it was too small a sample despite their atypical success and similar results were not seen by multiple users. That's why I insist on a large sample for any sort of a valid kill ratio. Unusual successes are a fact, but are atypical.

Ricrato, if you just go back and read my post, you'll see what I'm talking about. If you don't agree, and I'd count on that, then please discuss civilly and we can talk. Otherwise, methinks the moderators won't be happy with us, and I'd rather not give one any reason to slap me ... or you. Discussion is nice, insulting dialogue is unpleasant and probably against the rules of this forum. So, state your case nicely and we can have a discussion. Or I can simply refrain from talking with you; your choice. Personally, I'd rather discuss and exchange ideas. What do you say?

Doni, I'll pretty much write what I want to, just like YOU did, whether or not this a Ta-152 thread or not, but I'll drop it if you will. Nothing I said about the Ta-152 was incorrect except some people think 43 airplanes qualifies as production; I don't. The rest is true. There were 2 to 7 victories and four losses in combat. That's not as good as the Grumman F4F Wildcat, but I attribute that more to the tactical situation at the time more than the general qualities of the Ta-152. Still, it was a neat effort and COULD have been a great one, but never made the grade in the crucible of combat. Most other brand new aircraft would not have done any better out of the box with no testing. The very few were deployed with less than 40 hours of testing! I'm amazed they did as well as they did.

All this stuff is opinions, not a personal attack. Let's play nice like the moderators asked us to do, OK? If you disagree, just post your opinion. I accept that we may never agree. I hope you can too. All our opinions come from what we've read and experienced. Naturally, our experiences are different and our opinions will be, too. OK? Doesn't mean we can't agree at all, just on several points. That's OK. It was 65 to 70 years ago and I have talked with the pilots who flew in the war. That's where I get my opinions, plus some from books published at the time by people who were there. I distrust people who weren't there a LOT ... they published anywhere from the truth to idiotic ideas that were never actually a fact. It's tough to pick the truth out from stuff written by people who weren't there, isn't it? They write as if they know, but they don't.

 

[wuzak]

As far a a twin goes, I'd nominate the Heinkel He-219 as one of the fastest, certainly faster than rank and file production Mosquitos. There may well have been variants of the reliable Mossie that were faster than the He-219, but the rank anf file Mosquitos were simply not faster. Of course, the He-219 is almost a footnote since it was primarily a night fighter and was never employed in missions similar to the Mosquito in any numbers, but about 283 were produced and that qualifies as production. It was also deployed and fought, though obviously not in any great numbers since there were so few made.

What counts as a "rank and file" Mosquito?

How about the Mosquito B.XVI? They made more of those than Heinkel made He 219s. And the B.XVI was faster than all but the specially prepared versions of the He 219, and probably still faster than those.

Of course, not quite as fast as a P-38, but not that far behind either:

Details for Mosquito B.XVI

Length: 41ft 6in (12.64m)

Wingspan: 54ft 2in (16.50m)

Height: 15ft 3in (4.65m)

Maximum Speed: 415mph (669kmh)

Ceiling: 37,000ft (11,273m)

Range: 1,485 miles (2,395km) with 4,000lb (1,816kg) bombload

Powerplant: Two Rolls Royce Merlin 72 or 73s of 1,680hp each or two Merlin 76 or 77s of 1,710hp each

Payload:
4,000lbs (1,816kg)

RAF - De Havilland Mosquito