NiceShotAustin
Airman
- 29
- Feb 22, 2012
Does anyone have some test data for the top speed of the HE-219 A7? I'm getting a mixed bag from articles on the Internet ranging from 385 mph to 415 mph (higher frequency in the 385 range)
Which double-engined aircraft of WWII, with piston engines was the fastest one?
- Thread starter Krewetki
- Start date
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I think you will find that the 415mph speed was for a striped He217. That is, the radar antlers and exhaust shrouds were removed.
Wuzak, the NF30 did 424 mph (682 km/h) at 26,500 ft (8,100 m). Some 526 were built.
wuzak
Captain
I only mentioned the B.XVI as this was one that the He 219 would be needing to intercept. PR.XVIs were just as fast, PR.IXs and B.IXs only slightly slower. I think the PR.34 was the fastest of them all, but slightly post war.
GregP
Major
Hi Wuzak,
I was thinking of the fighter versions of the Mosquito. The PR versions were unarmed and not a threat to other aircraft. Ditto the Bombers … though they DID carry bombs. The F Mk II went 366 mph, Sure, there were some faster PR and Bomber versions, but I was thinking fighters. They were slower due to the addition of armament and the attendant drag.
As for the He 219, the A-6 went 400 mph and the He 219B went 440 mph. If they added the drag of radar, the speed dropped to about 385 mph, just as it would drop on a Mosquito with radar antennas installed. Antennas were pretty draggy.
I'm not Mosquito bashing here; I love the Mossie. I am also not a huge fan of the He 219. I simply put it out as a fast twin engine aircraft, and some versions were. A Mosquito PR Mk VIII went 436 mph, so they were fast, too … but unarmed. I am a fighter guy, and not a fan of unarmed aircraft in wartime.
So the armed He 219 could hit 440 mph with the Jumo 222 engines, assuming they were running well. Armed Mosquitoes were not that fast, though the unarmed ones could get close. If I had a choice, I'd take the Mosquito due to the reliable Merlin engines. The Jumo 222's were quite powerful, but had a reputation for being very temperamental. If it's MY life on the line, give me reliable any day.
In any case, the He 219 was a fast twin, as were the Mosquito and the P-38.
In point of fact, the Douglas A-26 could hit abouit 385 mph, too, and it had both fixed armement as well as a bomb bay. The Mitsubishi Ki-46 was also pretty fast and slick, and was armed, and they built 611 of them, so it qualifies. The Beechcraft A-38 Grizzly was pretty fast at 377 mph, but was only a prototype. The Caproni-Bergamaschi Ca.380 was fast at 400 mph, but was only a prototype, too. The Dormier Do.335 was fast, but they only built 26, so I don't count it either. The Focke-Wulf Ta-154 was fast at 404 mph, but only 50 were built and they weren't used operationally much in the war. The Kawasaki Ki-96 was fast, but they only built 3. The Kawasaki Ki-102c went 373 mph and they built about 238, so it qualifies as a fast WWII combat twin.
The McDonnell XP-67 was fast at 410 mph, but was only built in prototype form. The Messerschmitt Me-261 was fast at 385 mph, but they only built 3. The Me-410 was pretty fast at 388 mph and was produced and deployed, so it is a candidate. The MiG-5 might have been a good one if they has built more than 2. The Mitsubishi Ki-83 wasa great candidate at 438 mph, and was armed, but they only built 4 of them! What a shame. The Nakajima J5N was pretty fast and armed, but they only built 6.
The Northrop P-61 is a strong candidate and some versions could hit 424 mph. The Savioa-Marchetti SM.92 was interesting and fast, but only a protoype, as was the Savoia-Marchetti SM.91.
There are others, but most are very slightly post-WWII.
I was thinking of the fighter versions of the Mosquito. The PR versions were unarmed and not a threat to other aircraft. Ditto the Bombers … though they DID carry bombs. The F Mk II went 366 mph, Sure, there were some faster PR and Bomber versions, but I was thinking fighters. They were slower due to the addition of armament and the attendant drag.
As for the He 219, the A-6 went 400 mph and the He 219B went 440 mph. If they added the drag of radar, the speed dropped to about 385 mph, just as it would drop on a Mosquito with radar antennas installed. Antennas were pretty draggy.
I'm not Mosquito bashing here; I love the Mossie. I am also not a huge fan of the He 219. I simply put it out as a fast twin engine aircraft, and some versions were. A Mosquito PR Mk VIII went 436 mph, so they were fast, too … but unarmed. I am a fighter guy, and not a fan of unarmed aircraft in wartime.
So the armed He 219 could hit 440 mph with the Jumo 222 engines, assuming they were running well. Armed Mosquitoes were not that fast, though the unarmed ones could get close. If I had a choice, I'd take the Mosquito due to the reliable Merlin engines. The Jumo 222's were quite powerful, but had a reputation for being very temperamental. If it's MY life on the line, give me reliable any day.
In any case, the He 219 was a fast twin, as were the Mosquito and the P-38.
In point of fact, the Douglas A-26 could hit abouit 385 mph, too, and it had both fixed armement as well as a bomb bay. The Mitsubishi Ki-46 was also pretty fast and slick, and was armed, and they built 611 of them, so it qualifies. The Beechcraft A-38 Grizzly was pretty fast at 377 mph, but was only a prototype. The Caproni-Bergamaschi Ca.380 was fast at 400 mph, but was only a prototype, too. The Dormier Do.335 was fast, but they only built 26, so I don't count it either. The Focke-Wulf Ta-154 was fast at 404 mph, but only 50 were built and they weren't used operationally much in the war. The Kawasaki Ki-96 was fast, but they only built 3. The Kawasaki Ki-102c went 373 mph and they built about 238, so it qualifies as a fast WWII combat twin.
The McDonnell XP-67 was fast at 410 mph, but was only built in prototype form. The Messerschmitt Me-261 was fast at 385 mph, but they only built 3. The Me-410 was pretty fast at 388 mph and was produced and deployed, so it is a candidate. The MiG-5 might have been a good one if they has built more than 2. The Mitsubishi Ki-83 wasa great candidate at 438 mph, and was armed, but they only built 4 of them! What a shame. The Nakajima J5N was pretty fast and armed, but they only built 6.
The Northrop P-61 is a strong candidate and some versions could hit 424 mph. The Savioa-Marchetti SM.92 was interesting and fast, but only a protoype, as was the Savoia-Marchetti SM.91.
There are others, but most are very slightly post-WWII.
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What radar antennas on the Mossie? The radar was enclosed in the nose.
You mean the proposed A-6 that was suppose to do 400mph.
A 85 Squadron Mossie NF30 (FltLt Vaugham, FltSgt McKinnon) shot down a He219 on the night of 13/14 April 1945.It was the A-10TL with a turbojet mounted below the fuselage. Even with the jet it couldn't outrun the Mossie.
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Ca 380 was only a project, the SM twins are not fast... or the 92 designed speed was fast (665 km/h) but the actual prototype speed was much lower.
so on hand i think 385 mph for A-26 it's too high, maybe some post war variant?
Thr P-61C was so fast but this is low production plane and very late (1st delivery july '45, last 41st jan '46)
so on hand i think 385 mph for A-26 it's too high, maybe some post war variant?
Thr P-61C was so fast but this is low production plane and very late (1st delivery july '45, last 41st jan '46)
GregP
Major
Milosh, I said that IF radar antennas were mounted on a Mosquito, it would have slowed down, too. I believe my sentences were clear. I never said they mounted antennas on Mosquitos like they did on, say, the Me-262 or He-219 ... I said IF. When they took the He-219 antennas off, it went pretty fast, and that is all I said ... and it DID. When equipped with running Jumo 222's, it was VERY fast.
Hi Vincenzo. When I was looking at combat twins of WWII, only a very few got to 400 mph or more. The balance were 250 385 mph aircraft, and I decided that anything over about 370 mph was a fast twin with regard to the rest of the twins or WWII. If you want to make the threshold different, please do so and propose a speed that any potential candidate must exceed. We can go from there. According to my data, the SM twins were decently fast; you might have other data. Even in Wikipedia, the SM.92 is listed as 382 mph and the SM.91 is olisted at 363 mph.
Relative to other 285 - 325 mph twins, that is decently fast, don't you think? If not, what is your threshold for a "fast" twin?
Hi Vincenzo. When I was looking at combat twins of WWII, only a very few got to 400 mph or more. The balance were 250 385 mph aircraft, and I decided that anything over about 370 mph was a fast twin with regard to the rest of the twins or WWII. If you want to make the threshold different, please do so and propose a speed that any potential candidate must exceed. We can go from there. According to my data, the SM twins were decently fast; you might have other data. Even in Wikipedia, the SM.92 is listed as 382 mph and the SM.91 is olisted at 363 mph.
Relative to other 285 - 325 mph twins, that is decently fast, don't you think? If not, what is your threshold for a "fast" twin?
wuzak
Captain
366mph for a fighter Mosquito would be early versions with the saxophone exhaust. Not sure if any FIIs got ejector exhausts.
As related before, the NF.XXX went 424mph. FB.VIs could do 380mph by the end of the war, 370mph earlier.
The bomber versions of the Mosquito are what the likes of the He 219 were designed to destroy.
Earlier you were told a stripped He 219 went 215mph - that is it was lightened, did not have all its armamemnt, nor radar.
Unlikely that a PR.VIII went 436mph. The fastest Mosquito was the prototype, W4050, which had shorter span wings and tailplane. When fitted with 70-series Merlins it was able to do 439mph.
How many He 219s were fitted with Jumo 222s? I think none. 440mph may be a projected speed with Jumo 222s, but I don't think any ever flew. Anybody confirm?
Yes, and the engines were not giving the power they ought to. Teh IV-1430 were rated for 1600hp in the XP-67, but are said to have actually only making 1060hp.
The P-61 that could do 400mph+ was the P-61C, and it was post war.
Interestingly, the He 219 was heavier empty equipped than a Mosquito fully loaded, and the P-61 nearly so.
GregP
Major
Actually, I knew there were over 280 He-219's built. I didn not know there was only one with the Jumo 222's. The He-219 has not been a subject of much interest to me, but came to mind when the question of a fast WWII fighter twin surfaced. Everyome shouts about the Mosquito and I thought I'd submit something else. Since 280+ built is enough for a limited "production," I threw out the He-219 as a type. It so happens that the He-219B was the only variant with performance quoted in the place I found the data, and there was no mention of only 1 being built. Now that you have brought that up, I'll check on He-219 production myself. Nothing at all ironioc about it; it's simply what I found, and the He-219 qualifies as a fast twin with more than 280 produced. At least it does in my book.
Checked and there seems to have been one or two Jumo 222 planes made, they aren't sure. But the He-219A-7 WAS built with DB 603 engiens and it went 400 mph on combat trim, so I suppose it qualifies. Nobody seems to be sure how many were built, but 210 were ordered.
I am not the subject of this topic; it is about fast WWII twins as I recall. So, submit a fast WWII production twin of your own if you don't like the He-219 as a candidate, and you don't seem to. If you prefer, open the discussion to prototypes and low-run planes, and we can begin to look at the one-off fast twins.
While I love them, they made no contribution to WWII and I simply think they are not really WWII combat aicraft since they didn't fight in the war. But, by all means, if you want to throw it open to any design started during the WWII timeframe, it opens the list considerably and admits some admittedly interesting prototypes. Almost anthing that flew before the end of 1949 was probably started during WWII, and that opens the door for the last of the piston military combat species. There were NO military piston twins slated as combat aircraft in the late 1940's that did not originate in WWII, but many didn't fly until after hostilities had ceased. Should we include them, too?
Checked and there seems to have been one or two Jumo 222 planes made, they aren't sure. But the He-219A-7 WAS built with DB 603 engiens and it went 400 mph on combat trim, so I suppose it qualifies. Nobody seems to be sure how many were built, but 210 were ordered.
I am not the subject of this topic; it is about fast WWII twins as I recall. So, submit a fast WWII production twin of your own if you don't like the He-219 as a candidate, and you don't seem to. If you prefer, open the discussion to prototypes and low-run planes, and we can begin to look at the one-off fast twins.
While I love them, they made no contribution to WWII and I simply think they are not really WWII combat aicraft since they didn't fight in the war. But, by all means, if you want to throw it open to any design started during the WWII timeframe, it opens the list considerably and admits some admittedly interesting prototypes. Almost anthing that flew before the end of 1949 was probably started during WWII, and that opens the door for the last of the piston military combat species. There were NO military piston twins slated as combat aircraft in the late 1940's that did not originate in WWII, but many didn't fly until after hostilities had ceased. Should we include them, too?
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Some projected He 219 speeds from a 6/1944 Heinkel document, first value without antenna + flame damper, second with:
A-2: 605 km/h in 6.4 km; 560 km/h in 6.3 km (DB 603A engine, all a/c had the uprated 603AA engine, speed should be not that far away from A-5)
A-5: 615 km/h in 8.4km; 585 km/h in 8.3 km; DB 603E engine (not built)
A-6: 630 in 8.6, 600 in 8.5 (DB 603E)
A-6: 650 in 10.2, 615 in 10.0 (DB 603L)
B-1: 655 in 7.4, 620 in 7.2 (Jumo 222 A/B-3)
B-1: 705 in 11.7, 650 in 11.4 (Jumo 222E/F)
A-2: 605 km/h in 6.4 km; 560 km/h in 6.3 km (DB 603A engine, all a/c had the uprated 603AA engine, speed should be not that far away from A-5)
A-5: 615 km/h in 8.4km; 585 km/h in 8.3 km; DB 603E engine (not built)
A-6: 630 in 8.6, 600 in 8.5 (DB 603E)
A-6: 650 in 10.2, 615 in 10.0 (DB 603L)
B-1: 655 in 7.4, 620 in 7.2 (Jumo 222 A/B-3)
B-1: 705 in 11.7, 650 in 11.4 (Jumo 222E/F)
GregP
Major
While I had not intended to turn this into a thread about a specific aircraft, I do have reports that the cews loved the He-219 and clamored for more. According to William Green, they even managed to assemble one from spare parts, but witheld news of its existenace carefully from the RLM.
It was probably the closest thing to a German Mosquito, though the RLM didn't quite seem to see it that way. That would be the same RLM that didn't think a strategic bomber was necessary, either.
Bad decisions seem to have come from the RLM regularly, and were based on a sort of popularity contest rather than cambat needs of the German armed services. Otherwise, they would have operated more high-performance Heinkel aircraft than they did. Just my two cents worth.
It was probably the closest thing to a German Mosquito, though the RLM didn't quite seem to see it that way. That would be the same RLM that didn't think a strategic bomber was necessary, either.
Bad decisions seem to have come from the RLM regularly, and were based on a sort of popularity contest rather than cambat needs of the German armed services. Otherwise, they would have operated more high-performance Heinkel aircraft than they did. Just my two cents worth.
wuzak
Captain
Projected? As in not measured?
As far as I am aware, the Jumo 222 never reached series production. Is this ocrrect?
If so, that delay B series production until the Jumo 222 was put into production.
Also, for those who work in mph:
Without radar antenna
A-2: 605km/h (376mph) @ 6.4km (20,997ft)
A-5: 615km/h (382mph) @ 8.4km (27,559ft)
A-6 (DB603E): 630km/h (391mph) @ 8.6km (28,215ft)
A-6 (DB603L): 650km/h (404mph) @ 10.2km (33,464ft)
B-1 (Jumo 222A/B): 655km/h (407mph) @ 7.4km (24,278ft)
B-1 (Jumo 222E/F): 705km/h (438mph) @ 11.7km (38,385ft)
With radar antenna
A-2: 560km/h (348mph) @ 6.4km (20,669ft)
A-5: 585km/h (364mph) @ 8.4km (27,230ft)
A-6 (DB603E): 600km/h (373mph) @ 8.6km (27,877ft)
A-6 (DB603L): 615km/h (382mph) @ 10.0km (32,808ft)
B-1 (Jumo 222A/B): 620km/h (385mph) @ 7.2km (23,622ft)
B-1 (Jumo 222E/F): 650km/h (404mph) @ 11.4km (37,401ft)
wuzak
Captain
Maybe in performance, but not in original role. The Mosquito was designed as a bomber/PR aircraft and adapted to night fighting, whereas the He 219 was a hevy fighter adapted as a night fighter. The Ju 88 is probably Germany's Mosquito, but as the Ju 88 came first maybe teh Mosquito was Britain's Ju 88.
GregP
Major
So, are we all agreed that the He-219 was a decently fast real WWII combat twin engine aircraft? I can't see why it took several pages, but at least we SEEM to agree it was about as fast as required to qualify for this thread, huh?
The WWII combat twins that made 400+ mph (643 kph) and ALSO had production of over 200 units were very rare. So far, only I have proposed that "fast" is anything above 360 - 370 mph (579 - 595 kph). Anybody else have a threshold in mind?
Milosh, thanks for the graphs. I can't read them very well, but maybe in the future I can.
The WWII combat twins that made 400+ mph (643 kph) and ALSO had production of over 200 units were very rare. So far, only I have proposed that "fast" is anything above 360 - 370 mph (579 - 595 kph). Anybody else have a threshold in mind?
Milosh, thanks for the graphs. I can't read them very well, but maybe in the future I can.
over 370 mph twin engined with combat in WWII and a relatively high production (200+)
Mosquito
Lightning
Army Type 4 two engined assault plane
Army Type 100 model 3 fighter (not sure on how many were converted in fighter)
Ju 88G-6
Ju 88S-3 (high altitude bomber)
Bf 110G
Me 210C
Me 410
He 219
i hope have not missed some
Mosquito
Lightning
Army Type 4 two engined assault plane
Army Type 100 model 3 fighter (not sure on how many were converted in fighter)
Ju 88G-6
Ju 88S-3 (high altitude bomber)
Bf 110G
Me 210C
Me 410
He 219
i hope have not missed some
GregP
Major
Thanks, Kreighund!
johnbr
2nd Lieutenant
I think the Arado 440 would have made a good night Fighter.
