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A lot of very determined P-40 haters out there!
Resp:To be fair to the Germans, longer ranged bomber raids with He 111s, Ju 88s etc. did some serious damage to Russian industrial capacity and logistics (like trains, marshalling yards etc.) in the early years of the war. Production of several aircraft were severely impacted, famously the original Yak 3 for example was basically cancelled due to a factory pulverized by German bombs. German bomber raids were quite deadly and efficient, they just lacked sufficient range once the factories were moved over the Urals. But German bomber raids are part of why they were moved (i.e. not just the threat of German tanks)
It also does emphasize that the need for the Spit IX was real and it's role was significant even if relegated to air defense.
But I think increasingly it was the threat of tanks that obsessed the commanders of both sides (*and filled their nightmares) and that is where they concentrated all their efforts - over the forward battlefield.
Of course the Soviets wanted the capability of high altitude fighters, and I believe they did eventually have a reasonably effective high altitude Yak 9. It just wasn't the main priority. In the long run the real need was probably at least in part due to the potential threat of Anglo-American heavy bombers and American long range fighters.
I think a Yak 9 pilot (or was it a Yak 3?) shot down a couple of P-51s over Berlin right?
S
We seem to splitting hairs here. You seem to think the Typhoon should have been doing hunter/killer mission looking for enemy fighters over occupied NW Europe in 1942/43. A Policy/tactic that had failed miserably in 1941/42 using Spitfires. Changing the type of fighter used was unlikely to bring about much change in the viability of the tactic.
A good part of the losses suffered on these cross channel missions were from flak, The German fighters did a fair share. But the Germans were NOT going to send up fighters to fight British fighters which were of little threat to the Germans. The British did have to use bombers as "bait" something like the B-17s and B-24s were used as "bait" in early 1944.
The first Typhoon squadron went into service in late 1941 but the two squadrons involved spent months just getting the Typhoon up to the standard needed for combat operations and still didn't quite make it before the Typhoon was committed to combat operations. the first Typhoon wing came into being in the summer of 1942. It took until Dec of 1942 for the British to get 12 squadrons in service. BTW the tail falling off problem had been pretty much cured by the end of 1942. Bracket that held the elevator balance counter weight would break and the fluttering elevator would overload the rear fuselage.
The Typhoon's air superiority role faded considerably when the Spitfire went from the MK V to the MK IX.
There is a difference between hating it and swallowing a bunch of candy coated counter tropes about it.
Yest but you are forgetting three things:
The Anglo-Americans both leaned heavily on their fighters to use as ground attack aircraft - with mixed results. P-38s and P-47s, Corsairs and Hellcats were all heavily armed and carried a lot of ordinance but were also big targets. P-51s as noted were vulnerable to ground fire.
- The Russians had something the Anglo-American Allies didn't have, the very dangerous dedicated ground attack aircraft, the Il-2 Sutmovik, as well as the high speed dive bomber the Pe -2. (The Yanks did have the A-36 but it had a mixed record as we have discussed*).
- The Russians were also early pioneers of the mass deployment of the air to ground rocket.
- As previously mentioned by others in this thread, the Russians fielded variants of their main fighters with heavy cannon installed (23mm, 37mm, 45mm etc.) which could be used for attacking ground targets.
Resp:I don't mean the Pacific Theater, I'm talking about in the Med. To be clear.
See this is pretty typical of a lot of the posts in this thread and some others. Sometimes, if you have made up what you believe before you start reading, it affects your reading comprehension. I know very well what was in the post I linked because I researched it myself and I transcribed it to that post.
Of the 8 pilots I quoted in that thread, only 2 (TWO) only fought in the Pacific - Shilling and DeHaven. Of the other 6, Clive Caldwell, Nicky Barr, General Davis, Charlie Hall and Billy Drake fought in the Med. Caldwell also fought later in the Pacific as well but almost all of his 28 some odd victories were with the P-40 in the Middle East. Drake also fought in various other Theaters around Europe in Spitfires and Hurricanes and scored 13 of his 22 kills with the Kittyhawk.
Golodnikov, the Russian, said that the P-40 was just as good as the Bf 109 through THE END OF 1943. That is to say, until 1944. He also said and I quote: "the Tomahawk was equal to the Bf 109F and the Kittyhawk was slightly better. "
Personally I'm not of the opinion that the P-40 was vastly better than a Bf 109F or G or a Typhoon for that matter. I think it was probably a little better in some ways and a little worse in others, but clearly quite competitive in a dogfight. The Typhoon had some real important value as a V-1 killer and Fw 190 chaser. But that is somewhat offset by all the development problems and the chronic issues like the fumes in the cockpit. Poor maneuverability not such a good thing either.
They used them and we do know the history of it. Spit V's were used in the Crimea where they got slaughtered and were pulled out of the line, Spit IXs were used exclusively for PVO (rear area air-defense) units. An important job, one which P-40s were eventually relegated to as well and to which the Spitfire was far better suited, but not front line duty.
What this has to do with a Mustang I have no idea. But I stand by what I said - the Mustang wouldn't have been good for the Russian Front.
S
Ok this is helpful - so 12 squadrons of Typhoons operational by Dec 1942 with tail breaking problems resolved, vs. roughly the same number of P-40F/L at that time. By the summer of 1943 there were 20 squadrons of P-40Fs in the Med, 15 USAAF, 2 RAF, and 3 Free French. Do you know how many Typhoon squadrons were ultimately deployed?
Didn't forget anything.
I believe the IL-2 was so important to the Russians because their fighters were so underwhelming at ground attack.
the IL-2 could carry the ordnance load of several of the small Russian fighters. and use only one pilot doing it.
The Russians were an early pioneer of the air to ground rocket except the rockets were not very good, even the big one was small and inaccurate (the British 3in rocket wasn't much, if any better at accuracy. ) russian designation was the diameter of the whole rocket, British designation was the diameter of the rocket motor with a mcu larger heavier warhead.
The quantity of aircraft actually equipped with the heavy gun ( 45mm) was minuscule out of the total production.
Like 53 of the Yak 9Ks with 45mm gun built and they needed to be escorted by Yak 3s. how many available for any one battle or campaign, interesting to talk about or make models of but not really significant in the general scheme of things.
The most TYphoon squadrons at any one time was 30
30 is the total number of units that flew the Typhoon. 23 is the largest number of units operation at one time, Jan '44.
Yes, but by this time the Typhoon was not a fighter, the RAF had Spitfire Mk IX and Mk XII and Hawker Tempest from Jan 44 plus P-51s either with RAF or UK forces.Vs 20 squadrons for the P-40F in the Med at the peak, which would have been June or July 1943. Seems pretty close.
The P-47 was one of the few Allied fighters the Luftwaffe loathed.And many really weren't suited for them - P-47 did well in the role for example but it was really a high altitude fighter at home killing enemy planes at 30,000 ft, it was a great big flak target down at treetop level and vulnerable to enemy fighters there too
Opps, you're right...it's been a real Monday so far...crossed up my LavochkinsLa-9 was a post war a/c.
Vs 20 squadrons for the P-40F in the Med at the peak, which would have been June or July 1943. Seems pretty close.
Though I dislike the appellation 'candy coated', I didn't say you were one of the haters. At least you bring the signal to noise ratio up with all your dissertations.
I'll plunge into the Bomber Mafia stuff later when I have more time, but I think it's as you alluded, most didn't want any fighters, but gradually came around to supporting the P-38 and then the P-47 as the need for escorts became more obvious, and eventually fell in love with the P-51 of course.