Which is the better fighter, P-40F or Typhoon? (3 Viewers)

[Elvis]

Apologies if this was already discussed ad nauseum, but how was the different weight of the two engines addressed in this case?
I think the Merlin is about 300 lbs. heavier than the Allison, so what did they do to counter act that, or was any change necessary?

Elvis

 

[Schweik]

Not quite. The US in the NA/Med theatre had to use the P-40F as their main air superiority fighter as they had little else available. When they got Spitfire Vs, they used those for air superiority and interceptions rather than P-40Fs.

Actually, that is completely incorrect - they used P-40F/L and Spit V simultaneously within the USAAF units and along with British / Commonwealth Spit V and Spit IX units through Anzio in 1944. P-40F/L got more of the escort missions, for example to Sardinia.

The majority of P-40F combats were at low and medium altitudes, with a lot combats being against mediocre to fair opponents.

Again, factually incorrect and easy to check incidentally. US fighter groups flying P-40s went up against the elite JG 27, which they basically destroyed, JG 77, JG 2 and several other top Luftwaffe fighter groups flying the latest Bf 109 and Fw 190s, in addition to Italian pilots flying C.202 and C.205 which were good enough to give RAF Spitfire units plenty of trouble.

There is simply no way anyone would have considered the P-40F the best option for any role by 1944.

And yet it was in heavy use in 1944, long after they had retired the Hurricane from front line duties even as a bomber.

In May 1943, three Typhoons were tested in Egypt with 451Sq RAAF, an experienced Hurricane IIc unit. As far as I know, those were the only Typhoons to operate outside the European Theatre. In the RAF's main theatre in the Far East (India/Burma) the incidences of land-based air combat were becoming so rare for the RAF by mid-1943, that they decided they already had enough Spitfires, and kept the Hurricane IIs for ground-attack. This was to simplify the logistics and maintenance picture. When they reconsidered with Tiger Force towards the very end of the War, the Tempest was already replacing the Typhoon.

They seemed to have failed the test which is why they continued to sit in England instead of being deployed in the Med where they were badly needed (especially if they were ostensibly better than the P-40s which were being so heavily relied on both for fighters and fighter bombers)

 

[Shortround6]

Apologies if this was already discussed ad nauseum, but how was the different weight of the two engines addressed in this case?
I think the Merlin is about 300 lbs. heavier than the Allison, so what did they do to counter act that, or was any change necessary?

Elvis

I have no information on what else they did but according the manuals they changed the order they used the fuel in.
Allison powered Es and later and the F&L started using the forward wing tank (it was the one plumbed for the return line so you wanted some space in it fairly soon).
Once take-off and climb to a safe height was achieved the belly tank (if fitted) was selected, when that was used up the rear fuselage tank was selected. Here is where the difference kicks in. On the F&L the rear tank was drawn down to 35 US gallons remaining and the the fuel selector was switched to the front wing tank, then the rear wing tank and finally back to the rear fuselage tank to use the remaining 35 gallons (if needed).
On the Allison powered P-40s the rear fuselage tank was drained after the drop tank then the rear wing tank and the forward wing tank was used last (after starting and using about 15 gallons to begin with). Basicly they were using 35 gallons ( around 210 lbs) worth of gas in the rear fuselage tank as ballast to counter the heavier Merlin engine.

 

[pbehn]

They seemed to have failed the test which is why they continued to sit in England instead of being deployed in the Med where they were badly needed (especially if they were ostensibly better than the P-40s which were being so heavily relied on both for fighters and fighter bombers)

Where in the Med were they desperately needed? The Axis powers surrendered in Tunisia in May 1943?

 

[wuzak]

Apologies if this was already discussed ad nauseum, but how was the different weight of the two engines addressed in this case?
I think the Merlin is about 300 lbs. heavier than the Allison, so what did they do to counter act that, or was any change necessary?

Elvis

The Merlin XX was about 75-100lb heavier than the V-1710.

The Merlin that was ~300lb heavier was the 60-series two stage versions.

 

[Shortround6]

The Merlin XX was about 75-100lb heavier than the V-1710.

The Merlin that was ~300lb heavier was the 60-series two stage versions.

for some reason the Packard Merlin was heavier than the British XX series. I don't know if it was the basic engine itself or some of the accessories? perhap only 60-70lbs but then I believe it needed a larger radiator and oil cooler?

OK, looked in Dean's AHT, and the Merlin went about 1518-1523 lbs (and a bit of production tolerance) while the Allisons went about 1307-1340lbs depending on Version.
Some of the other weights bounce around bit , like engine section, eng Accessories, Controls, starting and cooling and oil systems, the cooling systems did NOT actually vary that much, 305-306lbs for the Merlin and 294lbs for the Allison.
I haven't checked all the different models listed but the power plant (as opposed to just the engine) might have been nearly 300lbs depending on exact model?

 

[Elvis]

I have to agree with Shortround6.
According to EngineHistory.org.'s charts, the V1650-1 Packard Merlin used in the F/L scaled out at 1520 lbs.
The V1710-33 used in P40's B, C, E & G scaled out at 1340 lbs.
P40-E also used the -39 Allison variant which scaled out at 1310 lbs.
So if you average the two Allison engines to 1325 lbs., that still makes them 195 lbs, lighter than the Merlin.
I guess not as much difference as I remembered, but I remember a very generalized stat, too.
Interesting how they simply changed how they used the on-board fuel to balance the difference in weight.
Those boys were thinkin', that's for sure.


Elvis

 

[Schweik]

Where in the Med were they desperately needed? The Axis powers surrendered in Tunisia in May 1943?

They needed all the help they could get invading Italy. Anzio was a close run thing or weren't you aware?

Prior to that official test in 1943 Typhoons (or any purportedly superior aircraft) were even more badly needed as the Desert Air Force was suffering heavy casualties, especially before the arrival of the Americans with all the extra kit and manpower. However if the Typhoon was indeed suitable and deemed effective I would think they would have deployed at least some squadrons since allegedly (per the comments in this thread) they were not seeing a lot of action in England. Or were they? Which is it?

 

[Schweik]

I have to agree with Shortround6.
According to EngineHistory.org.'s charts, the V1650-1 Packard Merlin used in the F/L scaled out at 1520 lbs.
The V1710-33 used in P40's B, C, E & G scaled out at 1340 lbs.
P40-E also used the -39 Allison variant which scaled out at 1310 lbs.
So if you average the two Allison engines to 1325 lbs., that still makes them 195 lbs, lighter than the Merlin.
I guess not as much difference as I remembered, but I remember a very generalized stat, too.
Interesting how they simply changed how they used the on-board fuel to balance the difference in weight.
Those boys were thinkin', that's for sure.


Elvis

The P-40F was definitely the heaviest P-40 up to that point, and the Merlin engine may have had a little to do with that though it wasn't the only thing. It is perhaps notable that the F was the first one to be so often systematically lightened in the field (by the removal of a pair of wing guns, some armor, and sometimes also some fuel capacity) that they followed up with the stripped factory version, the L. The L actually had a better combat record if we can believe the numbers in Mediterranean Air War though that may be attributable to increasing experience by the pilots.

I show the P-40E as anywhere from 5,920 to 6,350 empty and 8,280 loaded, with various numbers for gross the average being about 9,200 (but they sometimes overloaded them with as much as 1,500 lbs of bombs for short sorties)

I show the following weights for the Merlin engined hawks:

P-40F-5-CU (6 guns)
Empty - 6,590 lb
Loaded - 8,480 lb (partial fuel)
Max Gross - 9,350 (includes external fuel tank)

P-40L-10 (4 guns)
Empty -6,340 lb
Loaded -8,020 lb (partial fuel)
Max Gross - 8,950 lb (includes external fuel tank)

Sources for Merlin weights are

• El Beid, Anis & Laurelut, Daniel. Curtiss P-40 from 1939 to 1945 (Planes and Pilots 3), Histoire and Collections, 2008. ISBN 2-913903-47-9 P. 34
• Shamburger, Page & Christy, Joe. The Curtiss Hawks. Wolverine Press, 1972. Library of Congress No. 79-173429 pp. 231- 234

However the Allison engined P-40K was even heavier (10,810 Max Gross) so there were other things being added that were making weight accumulate

One thing I'm a little baffled by is that the RAF planes had to wear these very heavy and apparently very draggy vokes filters etc., but the P-40s using basically the same or very similar Merlin engine didn't seem to suffer that much from dust despite their huge chin radiator / oil cooler scoops and whatever filter they were using doesn't seem to have been all that bulky or heavy. I have come across a few references to a filter but I don't know any details.

P-38s also seem to have flown in the Med at the same time, albeit with some ongoing maintenance problems, without any giant filter systems either.

 

[slaterat]

The intake on the various merlin mks is located on the underside of the engine/fuselage, in a position that would ingest a lot more dust than an intake on the top of the engine/fuselage as on most allisons. The volkes filter on the Hurricane adds very little to the frontal area and only cost about 5-7 mph in top speed. The Assembly on the Spit V was much larger and clumsier looking but I believe it also housed a larger glycol header tank and/or oil tank, for additional cooling.

 

[slaterat]

I also believe that overall the volkes filters get far too much criticism post war. The filters allowed more planes to be in the air more often especially when logistics were stretched to the max. Its kind of similar to over boosting an engine, you get some extra performance but also reduced engine life, and maybe a higher risk of catastrophic engine failure.

 

[slaterat]

When comparing engine weights the single stage single speed merlins, III ,45 and 46 weighed in at around 1375 lbs. The single stage two speed merlin X,XX,XXX weighed in at around 1450 lbs, while the two stage/two speed merlin 60 series weighed in at around 1650 lbs. So not much difference between a single stage ,single speed merlin or allison.

 

[wuzak]

for some reason the Packard Merlin was heavier than the British XX series. I don't know if it was the basic engine itself or some of the accessories? perhap only 60-70lbs but then I believe it needed a larger radiator and oil cooler?

OK, looked in Dean's AHT, and the Merlin went about 1518-1523 lbs (and a bit of production tolerance) while the Allisons went about 1307-1340lbs depending on Version.
Some of the other weights bounce around bit , like engine section, eng Accessories, Controls, starting and cooling and oil systems, the cooling systems did NOT actually vary that much, 305-306lbs for the Merlin and 294lbs for the Allison.
I haven't checked all the different models listed but the power plant (as opposed to just the engine) might have been nearly 300lbs depending on exact model?

Lumsden has the Merlin XX at 1,450lb and teh Merlin 28/V-1650-1 as 1,460lb.

 

[Shortround6]

A few points, By the end of April, beginning of May 1943 there were only about 1200 Typhoons built, and that is from Sept of 1941. Of those about 700 were built from Sept of 1942 to May of 1943. early deployment of the Typhoon to other theaters may have been governed by availability rather than any special needs or out of the ordinary faults of the aircraft.

Anzio is a red herring. By Jan 1944 the Typhoon was both not the only game in town for a fighter bomber or air superiority aircraft.
In April of 1944 P-51Bs start operating in Italy, (Wiki says that the Anzio operation lasted until June 5th) The 57th fighter group in Italy got P-47s in Jan 1944 to replace their P-40s, a 2nd group, the 79th starts requiping in March.
I don't know when the P-38 groups in Italy started getting the newer P-38s. But the P-38J went into production in Sept of 1943.

As to the weight of the Merlin V-1650-1, AHT agrees (or close enough, under 10lbs) with "The Merlin in Perspective" Rolls royce Heritage trust No 2.

The tables at the rear of Lumsden book leave a little to be desired. It appears that there are a number of entries that are on the wrong lines or one number is used repeatedly in a column (especially weights) for it to be 100% trustworthy. At least the copy I have, other printings or editions may have fixed these problems? I am blaming type setters and proofreaders, not Lumsdens research.

 

[Kevin J]

They needed all the help they could get invading Italy. Anzio was a close run thing or weren't you aware?

Prior to that official test in 1943 Typhoons (or any purportedly superior aircraft) were even more badly needed as the Desert Air Force was suffering heavy casualties, especially before the arrival of the Americans with all the extra kit and manpower. However if the Typhoon was indeed suitable and deemed effective I would think they would have deployed at least some squadrons since allegedly (per the comments in this thread) they were not seeing a lot of action in England. Or were they? Which is it?

Typhoon IB Performance Data Scroll down to AAEE test at Boscombe Down dated 31/7/43. Sea level speed increases from 343 to 357 mph from 1942 to 1943. So how much speed is lost if you have a tropical filter.

P-39 Performance Tests Scroll down to P-39N-1 test dated 17/10/42. Speed at 2700 feet is 358 mph. considering the air intake is above and behind the pilot, no doubt little speed would be lost by a dust filter.

I doubt that there would be little or any speed difference between the 2 fighters below 10000 feet. You could sling a large drop tank below the Cobra, so if you just want to patrol to intercept incoming Fw 190 fighter bombers, my guess is that the Cobra could overhaul one, if the Fw 190 dropped its bombs and used MW 50 then it could escape. You don't need the Typhoon in the Med in 1942/43 if you have the Cobra which would probably have a longer patrol time.

 

[Schweik]

The intake on the various merlin mks is located on the underside of the engine/fuselage, in a position that would ingest a lot more dust than an intake on the top of the engine/fuselage as on most allisons. The volkes filter on the Hurricane adds very little to the frontal area and only cost about 5-7 mph in top speed. The Assembly on the Spit V was much larger and clumsier looking but I believe it also housed a larger glycol header tank and/or oil tank, for additional cooling.

I think you are missing my point - I was referring to the merlin engined P-40s not the Allison engined ones.

 

[Schweik]

A few points, By the end of April, beginning of May 1943 there were only about 1200 Typhoons built, and that is from Sept of 1941. Of those about 700 were built from Sept of 1942 to May of 1943. early deployment of the Typhoon to other theaters may have been governed by availability rather than any special needs or out of the ordinary faults of the aircraft.

They certainly hoarded their Spit IX's for longer than most in the Med would have liked, but every other aircraft they could try was thrown into the mix because it was a very hard fight.

Anzio is a red herring. By Jan 1944 the Typhoon was both not the only game in town for a fighter bomber or air superiority aircraft.
In April of 1944 P-51Bs start operating in Italy, (Wiki says that the Anzio operation lasted until June 5th) The 57th fighter group in Italy got P-47s in Jan 1944 to replace their P-40s, a 2nd group, the 79th starts requiping in March.
I don't know when the P-38 groups in Italy started getting the newer P-38s. But the P-38J went into production in Sept of 1943.

I'll have to check MAW IV for P-51Bs and late model P-38s by the time of Anzio- I don't remember seeing any. They did have the A-36 P-51s being used as dive bombers pretty extensively, they had some P-47s coming into use toward the end of the campaign, and the need was great enough to pull P-39s off of "coastal patrol" duty and start using them as fighter bombers, though the Hurricanes were still left out of it.

The P-38s were used almost exclusively for high altitude bomber escort, mainly of B-24s and some B-17s. The Spitfires were used for short range tactical air cover (including over Anzio beach-head, which is where the Spit IXs were found most of the time during Anzio) and P-40F/L were used for the same tactical air cover missions (mostly to stop Fw 190 fighter bombers), as well as medium bomber (B-25 and B-26) escort (particularly over Sardinia) and fighter-bomber missions, including short range ones very near the Anzio beach-head and also as far away as over Yugoslavia. The P-47s, when they started becoming available, were used for the same mix of missions (sometimes in concert with the P-40s as they were gradually phased in).

However, as usual your comment is disingenuous, I mentioned Anzio as one of the better known highlights and critical moments of the Italian campaign, but I was referring to the whole thing which was bitterly fought, from Pantelleria and Lampedusa to Sicily, Salerno and onto Italy. Anzio was not a red herring it was one of the most intense and bitterly contested air battles of the Mediterranean Campaign.

The RAF in particular could have really used some Typhoons, if they were truly viable, in the second half of 1942 and early 1943.

 

[Schweik]

Typhoon IB Performance Data Scroll down to AAEE test at Boscombe Down dated 31/7/43. Sea level speed increases from 343 to 357 mph from 1942 to 1943. So how much speed is lost if you have a tropical filter.

P-39 Performance Tests Scroll down to P-39N-1 test dated 17/10/42. Speed at 2700 feet is 358 mph. considering the air intake is above and behind the pilot, no doubt little speed would be lost by a dust filter.

I doubt that there would be little or any speed difference between the 2 fighters below 10000 feet. You could sling a large drop tank below the Cobra, so if you just want to patrol to intercept incoming Fw 190 fighter bombers, my guess is that the Cobra could overhaul one, if the Fw 190 dropped its bombs and used MW 50 then it could escape. You don't need the Typhoon in the Med in 1942/43 if you have the Cobra which would probably have a longer patrol time.

The P-39s were good enough on paper, but not trusted by their pilots or commanders in the Med, and after a couple of debacles in North Africa where they got slaughtered, got relegated to coastal patrol missions. It wasn't until 1944 before they started making any real use of them as fighter-bombers / interdiction aircraft. The issue may have been training to some extent.

P-39's also had the distinction of killing several of our Allied colleagues in the Free French and Italian Co-belligerant air forces in accidents, including in the latter a couple of their top surviving aces.

Maybe they should have brought some Soviet pilots in for cross-training.


My main question is, was the Typhoon in a similar "not really ready for prime time" situation vis a vis the Med in 1942-1944, either due to mechanical difficulties or fighting limitations or both.

 

[wuzak]

The RAF in particular could have really used some Typhoons, if they were truly viable, in the second half of 1942 and early 1943.

That's the problem - there weren't enough Typhoons to service the ETO and the Med at that time.

My main question is, was the Typhoon in a similar "not really ready for prime time" situation vis a vis the Med in 1942-1944, either due to mechanical difficulties or fighting limitations or both.

Or production.

 

[Schweik]

That's the problem - there weren't enough Typhoons to service the ETO and the Med at that time.




Or production.

Ok, so we are saying here that the Typhoons did have plenty of missions to fly from England in the early years? Because one of the reasons given as to why the P-40F had so much better of a combat record (so many more victory claims) is that the Typhoons didn't have any targets to tangle with. So are you saying that is wrong and they did? Were they routinely flying missions?