GreenKnight121
Senior Airman
- 734
- Mar 16, 2014
Damn forum won't let me attach pics. Could someone tell me why?
Why did so many WW2 Planes have twin tails?
- Thread starter gruad
- Start date
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I can tell you it's not the "damn forum". I have no problem posting pictures (as shown) so it may be your damn source!
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Several things - a "twin tail hanging in the propwash" (slipstream is the correct term) gives greater rudder authority without having to have a huge vertical stabilizer or rudder. This configuration does improve control at lower speeds. It may be a bit "draggier" but not by much for the speeds WW2 aircraft were being operated at. Many manufacturers looked at this because as twin engine aircraft were becoming faster and faster, so was their landing speeds. The twin tail made landings easier, especially for low time pilots.
For this aircraft's size and what it's carrying, the twin tail works just fine.
As far as structural loads on the fuselage - is this your opinion or do you have something to base this on? Every aircraft is going to see different loads in the tail area and the aircraft is built to withstand these loads regardless if a "joint" is within the fuselage (or hull). When the JRM was being developed, it was first designed to be a patrol bomber. The US Navy changed the design requirement to a long range transport. During that period (late 1943) The hull was lengthened, structure was reinforced, armament was removed, more powerful engines installed (Wright R-3350-24WA) as well as 4 bladed propellers. From what I can see the twin tail was done away with because it was determined that adequate rudder authority can be achieved with a single tail configuration, also construction would be easier and cheaper.
Zippythehog
Staff Sergeant
- 759
- Jan 7, 2017
The extra vertical stabilizer would also increase "keel effect" which, like a boat makes the aircraft more stable. Multiple small surfaces also resist force for a given size better than a similar amount of metal in a single vertical stabilizer (mechanical advantage of a smaller arm resistance to distortion).
The biggest advantage though was already detailed by Flyboy J. He wrote about the advantages of a rudder behind the prop giving better rudder effectiveness.
TWA required the Connies to fit in their existing hangars and to meet aerodynamic requirements for controllability, the plane was built with three vertical stabs/rudders.
The biggest advantage though was already detailed by Flyboy J. He wrote about the advantages of a rudder behind the prop giving better rudder effectiveness.
TWA required the Connies to fit in their existing hangars and to meet aerodynamic requirements for controllability, the plane was built with three vertical stabs/rudders.
GreenKnight121
Senior Airman
- 734
- Mar 16, 2014
No, it won't open ANY of the functions at the top of the reply form.
Not the "link" box (where you put the link and link description), not the image block (where you put the link to an image), not the one to upload a pic from your computer's memory... NONE of them!
I can't even apply bolding, etc... NONE of those functions work!
In order to bold, put text into a quote box, etc I have to type out the "bracket function end bracket text bracket backslash function end bracket" string.
I managed to link an image on a website that way, but I can't upload a file from my hard drive that way.
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
Hey GreenKnight121,
There is a good chance the problem is in your browser settings. I use Google Chrome and ran into a similar problem a number of years ago. It turned out that I or something else had changed one of the settings. I did not patiently go through each option and check which one was the problem - I just went to Chrome//:Settings --> Advanced --> Reset Settings. It solved the problem. All the major browsers have a similar set-up. Hope this helps.
There is a good chance the problem is in your browser settings. I use Google Chrome and ran into a similar problem a number of years ago. It turned out that I or something else had changed one of the settings. I did not patiently go through each option and check which one was the problem - I just went to Chrome//:Settings --> Advanced --> Reset Settings. It solved the problem. All the major browsers have a similar set-up. Hope this helps.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Zippythehog
Staff Sergeant
- 759
- Jan 7, 2017
Don4331
"So, a B-26 which is going to be scooting right along to take off just because of the small wings, doesn't need the fin/rudder directly behind the engine as much as a B-25 which can take off from a carrier deck."
Interesting that you recall the B-26. It was fast for a bomber but difficult to control on one engine-for the very reasons pointed out in this discussion. The "flying prostitute" (because it had no visible means of support) was responsible for the saying, "one a day in Tampa Bay." The crews were trained on the B-26 in Tampa and they often crashed in training. A contributing fact to the difficulty of control was its Vmc speed was so high, 140KIAS of the B-26 vs 126KIAS for the B-25 at roughly the same MTOW. Admittedly, a lot goes into aircraft performance (engines, missions) and it's easy to oversimplify in a discussion what the engineers built.
"So, a B-26 which is going to be scooting right along to take off just because of the small wings, doesn't need the fin/rudder directly behind the engine as much as a B-25 which can take off from a carrier deck."
Interesting that you recall the B-26. It was fast for a bomber but difficult to control on one engine-for the very reasons pointed out in this discussion. The "flying prostitute" (because it had no visible means of support) was responsible for the saying, "one a day in Tampa Bay." The crews were trained on the B-26 in Tampa and they often crashed in training. A contributing fact to the difficulty of control was its Vmc speed was so high, 140KIAS of the B-26 vs 126KIAS for the B-25 at roughly the same MTOW. Admittedly, a lot goes into aircraft performance (engines, missions) and it's easy to oversimplify in a discussion what the engineers built.
thunderbird
Airman
- 74
- Jul 8, 2009
Seems like only multi-engined aircraft had multiple vertical tails in WWII. Multiple engined aircraft should be able to lose one engine at takeoff speeds and above, and still be flyable, as has been stated above. One tail can do the job, as has been stated, but twin tails have another advantage. They act as endplates and improve the effectiveness of the horizontal tail. Twin tails are also shorter. Being shorter, they reduce the small but not insignificant roll produced by the taller single tail when using rudder. This roll caused by the rudder can also twist the fuselage, a fact which limits re-engining the B-52, and led to at least one airliner crash.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Except for the Douglas A-10, Martin B-26, DH Mosquito, Messerschmitt Me410, Mitsubishi KI-46, Arkhangelsky Ar-2, Douglas A-26, Kawasaki KI-45, Westland Whirlwind, etc...
Hi,
I believe that there may have been a couple single engine planes from around that era with more than 1 vertical tail.
Specifically, the de Havilland Vampire jet (which was designed and in production during the last part of WWII, but which did not start entering service till right after the war - if I am recalling correctly) had a single engine but a twin boom tail.
Commercially there was a single engine aircraft called the Ercoupe that had a twin tail that was designed and entered production before the war, and resumed production after it.
I also believe that the Polish investigated some twin tail variants of there PZL 23 light bomber (called the PZL 42 or 46 I think), but I do not believe that these ever entered production.
And finally, there were some planes like the French LN-40/401 dive bomber that had a single center vertical tail (with a hinged rudder), with an additional vertical fin to either side, giving it the appearance of having three vertical tails (though I believe that the outer fins did not include a hinged rudder section). I belive that the Grumman Guardian ASW plane, which first flew in 1945, but didn't enter service till 1950, was similarly configured.
buffnut453
Captain
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,661
- May 13, 2018
Don't forget the Swiss single engine 3 seater with twin tails.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
There were quite a few twin tail, twin engined aircraft, yes, but there were a good number of twin engined, single tail aircraft as well.
The DH Vampire had a twin tail/ twin boom (so did the SAAB J-21), but the Gloster Meteor had twin engines and a single tail.
The He280 had two engines and twin tails, but the Me262 had two engines and a single tail.
The Leo 45 not only had twin engines and twin tails, it's horizontal stabilizers was dihedral.
It all comes down to the design staff, using the best information they had at the time, to create a stable, solid performing machine.
The DH Vampire had a twin tail/ twin boom (so did the SAAB J-21), but the Gloster Meteor had twin engines and a single tail.
The He280 had two engines and twin tails, but the Me262 had two engines and a single tail.
The Leo 45 not only had twin engines and twin tails, it's horizontal stabilizers was dihedral.
It all comes down to the design staff, using the best information they had at the time, to create a stable, solid performing machine.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Single-engined twin-tail? He-162.
Admiral Beez
Major
I'd say this is partially why Japan had so few twin tail aircraft. You've got the Mitsubishi G3M, Kawasaki Ki-56 and Kawanishi H6K with twin tails, but most other multi engine aircraft are single tail.
Interestingly, their last ditch Yokosuka Ohka and Kyushu J7W Shinden were twin tails. Though the latter had to be, being a pusher prop aircraft.
Admiral Beez
Major
Not uncommon in early jets. DH Vampire, Heinkel He 280, Saab 21R for example. I wonder if the He 162 tail had any carry over development from the earlier He 280.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The He162 had to have twin horizontal stabilizers due to it's engine location.
The Hs132 had the same configuration, too.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Right, vert stabs don't do so well in jet exhaust.
My understanding is that propellor twin-tails generally had the vert stabs near or even in-line with the propwash of twin engines to accentuate command authority of the control surface. Doesn't work so, uh, *hot* with jets.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
lol...I did say "horizontal", didn't I?
In my defense, I was barely into my first cup of coffee...
In my defense, I was barely into my first cup of coffee...
