- Thread starter
- #21
Admiral Beez
Major
The North American B-25H could have been renamed in RAF service in tribute to the Vickers F.B.5 Gunbus.
Why Wildcat=Martlet, Avenger=Tarpon but others unchanged?
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
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Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
... and thereby gain a very affordable upgrade!
Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
Better than naming a slow pig a "Barracuda".
- Thread starter
- #25
Admiral Beez
Major
Slow pig? It's all relative. While slow compared to the foreign competition. the Fairey Barracuda was the fastest torpedo bomber ever to serve on the Royal Navy's carriers, postwar Mark 30 acoustic ASW torpedo armed turboprop Gannets aside. The US-origin Tarpons never carried torpedos and the Sharks, Swordfish and Albacores before the Barracuda were relative slugs.
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Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
So yeah, compared to the Avenger, slow pig.
ETA: there's a video on Armoured Carriers wherein pilots who flew both the 'Cuda and the Avenger gave their own opinions. You should check it out, they're unsparing.
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- Thread starter
- #27
Admiral Beez
Major
Well yes, but to the British one is a torpedo bomber, the other a level bomber. It's apples to oranges.
It doesn't matter if the Avenger is faster if the British can't get the special torpedoes it needs. Meanwhile the Barracuda is about as fast as the Nakajima B5N, the superlative torpedo bomber of the early Pacific war.
Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
To the rest of the world, on the other hand, both are torpedo bombers with extra ability for bombing missions. I mean, there's more to the world than the British view.
America did fine with it once we sorted our torpedo problems. I'm comparing the two airplanes in general, not the two planes in FAA service -- because, again, there's more to this than British opinion.
Damned by faint praise. The B5N was a pedestrian plane which got shot down in droves. Its saving grace was that it slung a damned good torpedo. And the 'Cuda intro'ed in what, 1943?
I bet the plane goes faster than the fish though.
When I saw a Brewster Buffalo in an Airfix catalogue I didnt understand why anyone named planes after 4 legged animals, Mustang was another. I was only about 8 or 9 though.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
And yet, no official Groundhog. One would think the Aussies would have had squadrons of Echidnas at least.
Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
- Thread starter
- #32
Admiral Beez
Major
That's the beauty of the disagree button. You don't get the why. I've been here long enough to recognize an infinite loop, where someone gives a reason why, followed by someone else paraphrasing a part of the original post and stating that the posted reason is not valid. And repeat. Hence the infinite loop. So, let's just close this down easily.…
I agree. 100%.
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Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
It's a shame that you phrased your reply completely ignoring my point, which I had hoped was plain. But whatever. You don't want to address it, and that's that.
In his autobiography, the then famous American news reporter Quentin Reynolds mentions that the Douglas Boston bomber was named so in order to gain favor with the then U.S. Ambassador to the Court of St. James, Joseph P. Kennedy Sr.. (JFK's dad) was beginning to think the British was better off surrendering to the Germans so he was replaced. in Oct. 1940.
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Well, the original U.S. Popular Name for the Mustang was, as I recall, the Apache.I assume Mustang was meant to be a nod to its American roots. Same as the Douglas A-20 Havoc becoming the Boston, as I doubt its small UK namesake had any influence.
Are any other WW2 era aircraft named from any nation after horses? List of horse breeds - Wikipedia
As for Boston/Havoc -they're both RAF names. Bostons were glass-nosed bombers, Havocs were solid-nosed night fighters and Gunship Intruders.
Well, and the Turbinlight Havoc, where they stripped the guns and ammo cans out of the bomb bay to put in the Motor-Generator for a Big Honkin' Fixed Searchlight, but kept the radar,
and added formation lights to the wings, so that a pair of blacked-out Hurricanes could try to hang on - the idea being that the Havoc would use the radar to creep up on a Luftwaffe Night Bomber, then light it up with the searchlight, so that maybe the Hurricanes could get a shot in at the now frantically evading bomber, hopefully without colliding with each other or the Havoc. Why this was thought to be better than keeping the 20mms in the Havoc, and just shooting the intruder.
The FROG kit N° F208 is labelled Douglas Havoc, Intruder or Boston.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Mustang has always been the Mustang.
For a brief moment in time, the USAAF considered the name "Apache" for the NA-91 (P-51, no suffix) but it was never applied, as Mustang was already in use and accepted.
The name Apache seemed to grow in popularity post-war with writers applying it first to the 150 NA91 P-51 and then later, the A-36.
pinehilljoe
Staff Sergeant
- 875
- May 1, 2016
The name Mustang, is perhaps one of the greatest gifts to America during the War by the British Empire, second only to the resonant cavity magnetron.
I have to admit, I had to look up what a Martlet is on Wikipedia.
Liberator was also the British name for the LB-30 transports the RAF received. It's also interesting to note that the first US-built heavy bomber fitted with power operated gun turrets in service was the Liberator Mk.II, which was an RAF only variant and was fitted with Boulton Paul tail and mid upper turrets.
I think you need to define "in service" and with which air force - RAF or USAAF.
Firstly with the exception of the first LB-30 off the production line the BP turrets, when fitted because not all were, were fitted in Britain usually by Scottish Aviation Limited at Prestwick. AL503, the first LB-30 to fly crashed into San Diego Bay on 2 June 1941 and was never delivered to the RAF. AL510 was photographed while at the A&AEE on 30th Oct 1941 carrying out BP turret trials having been there since the 10th. The first deliveries to RAF squadrons were to:-
108 in the Middle East. 5 aircraft were flown direct from the USA to Egypt by USAAF crews in late Nov / early Dec 1941 (one crashed en route). These were not fitted with BP power operated turrets, making do with hand held nose, waist & tail mounts.
120 in Coastal Command received 3xGR.II on 25th Nov 1941 and another on 4 Dec 1941. But, like the GR.I aircraft flown by the squadron I don't believe that these were equipped with the BP turrets as they were operating over the Atlantic and there was a need to keep the weight down to maximise range.
The first front line RAF squadrons to receive the LB.30 Liberator B.II didn't form until Jan 1942 (159 squadron on 2nd and 160 on the 16th) originally destined for India but diverted to the ME. On 9th Jan 1942 1653 Heavy Conversion Unit was formed to train the crews of these squadrons on Liberators. Neither of these units began to fly operationally until later in 1942.
Immediately following Pearl Harbor 75 LB-30 either still in the USA or on the production line were taken over by the USAAF. AL570 was one of these and was photographed on 20 Jan 1942 at Bangalore en route to the 19th BG on Java with a Martin top turret and hand held nose, tail and waist guns. That unit received 15 LB-30. The LB-30 variant of the Liberator also flew with the 6th BG out of the Panama Canal Zone (17 aircraft), the 28th Composite Group in Alaska (3 aircraft) and witha Hawaii based unit (4 aircraft) with others used as transports and for training B-24 crews. Note that in USAAF service they retained the LB-30 designation and RAF serials. 23 of these were later released to the RAF April-July 1942 in lieu of later models.
A number of other early deliveries of LB-30 to the RAF immediately became unarmed transports on the Return Ferry Service across the Atlantic.
Meanwhile in the B-17 world, the B-17E first flew on 5th Sept 1941 equipped with a periscopically sighted Bendix belly turret (replaced by the Sperry Ball Turret from the 113th aircraft) and a Sperry top turret with 2x0.5" in each plus hand held guns in other locations. The first unit to receive them was the 7th BG in Nov 1941. The first 6 of this unit's aircraft to leave for the Pacific were caught at PH when the Japanese attacked. The rest of the air echelon went to Java via India by mid-Jan 1942.
EDIT:- The first LB 30 to arrive in Britain was AL505 which arrived at Ayr on 27 Sept 1941. It remained with SAL until being delivered to A&AEE on 24 Jan 1942 for turret, flame damping & radio trials.
I missed 150 squadron from amongst the early users. 5 aircraft delivered to them in Nov / Dec 1941. 3 withdrawn in Jan 1942 and the other 2 in May. It never used these operationally so far as I can tell. Main equipment was the Wellington at that time. Deliveries were not being made quickly enough to allow it and 159 & 160 squadrons to equip with the type. All three squadrons were originally intended for the Far East.
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