That is why I posted what I posted. If the British intended to surrender Halifax would have had backing in the commons and would have been made PM to do it. The difference is between that of President and Prime Minister.
Wildcat during the Battle of Britain (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter pinehilljoe
- Start date
... and the German military were surprised not only by the fall of France, but they were expecially surprised by the suddennes of that fall.
If Hitler had had in his hands more than three hundred thousands British prisoners, that escaped with Dynamo, probably the public opinion in GB would have been different: a clear sign that Hitler had no precise idea of what to do next.
Of course Churchill had other options! The British could have signed an armistice in 1940 just like the French did. After the Great War, a lot of British people were opposed to the idea of getting involved in "another Continental war" and didn't want to provide the assurance to Poland that we would stand by them. For many business people in the UK (and the USA), the idea of going to war over Poland was "silly", they didn't see the Nazis as a risk to the British Empire, and saw Hitler as a bulwark against Communism. In the USA, many prominent politicians and business people did not want war between Germany and the British. People like Henry Ford had big business interests in Germany and were positively hostile to supporting the UK. Joseph Kennedy, the US Ambassador to the UK, was actively pursuing a policy of influencing Washington to refuse aid to the UK so Churchill would be forced to sign an armistice.
As for Hitler, he openly expressed his admiration for the "English Empire" and wanted to build an equivalent Aryan empire. He did not see Britain as a natural enemy of Germany. He did remember how the British had sent forces to Russia in 1919 to fight the Reds, and how Britain had overcome the impact of socialism agitators (unlike the French). Hitler was under the illusion that the British public were just looking for an excuse to ditch the French and join him in stamping out Communism. Some of that idea was due to British appeasers like Lord Halifax, some was due to British right-wingers like Mosely, and some was due to how the British had secretly supported Franco at the start of the Spanish Civil War. Once Hitler had convinced himself the British would seek a peace, he convinced himself there could be no other outcome. He was so surprised that he was rebuffed that he wasted weeks in June waiting for "the English to come to their senses". Even as late as July 11th 1940, Hitler and Admiral Raeder discussed invading Britain and Hitler described it as "the last resort", even though the Luftwaffe was then confidently predicting complete annihilation of the RAF in three weeks!
So, yes, Hitler wanted peace with the British in 1940. It's a historical fact.
Hitler had made clear his long-term goal was expansion into the East, so his clash with the Soviets was inevitable. Churchill had plenty of intelligence telling him Hitler wanted to attack Russia, and one of Churchill's aims was to try and bring Russia into the War against Germany, because he knew Hitler could not afford a two-front war. Hitler himself knew the Soviets were planning to attack, so he had to get a peace signed with or defeat Britain and get his forces to the East before Stalin was ready. Hitler had to leave the West in 1941 after failing to get that peace and after failing to defeat Britain in 1940.
yulzari
Tech Sergeant
I will not divert this thread further but it is unfair to use Lord Halifax's name as if he were prepared to sell the British Empire and Europe for a mess of pottage. He had his faults to be sure but a closer examination of his career shows him to addicted to peace rather than fearing to wage war in a just cause. The 'Lord Halifax would sell out' meme is just that and exists only by virtue of it's repetition.
There is no reason to expect him to sign up to a peace with Germany were he to have become Prime Minister. But he was not prepared to close contacts just for the sake of it. What he did not have was the confidence of the House nor the public charisma of Churchill which was appropriate to the needs of those days.
There is no reason to expect him to sign up to a peace with Germany were he to have become Prime Minister. But he was not prepared to close contacts just for the sake of it. What he did not have was the confidence of the House nor the public charisma of Churchill which was appropriate to the needs of those days.
maybe i should have wrote "realistic options" ?
hmmm !
the British empire and an Aryan empire side by side peacefully sharing the planet, that was not going to happen was it ?
i'm sure America and Japan would of loved that.
starting to sound like a lost starwars episode !
The fact he had no plan completely supports the premise that Hitler never actually wanted to invade Britain, that he wanted a "just peace" where the Third Reich would be treated as an equal to the British Empire. He did have a plan to defeat France because France was always the traditional enemy of Germany, and Hitler saw France as the main instigator of the humiliating Treaty of Versailles. Planning for Unternehmen Seelöwe didn't even start until June 1940, and then Jodl's strategy was not invasion but to put pressure on the British to agree an armistice. As it was, the detailed planning of the invasion of Russia started on July 4th, showing where Hitler's real focus lay.
Hitler's pre-War plans roughly fall into three stages - domination of Continental Europe and expansion into Russia up to the Urals; subjugation of most of Africa; and finally invasion and defeat of the USA.
The Heer were surprised at how fast France collapsed, yes, but then so was everyone except the extreme Right. Hitler had long concluded that France would fall quickly because he saw it as rotten to the core from years of socialism. That belief wasn't based on any great military judgement, it was Hitler's gut belief.
Because he was right with Poland and then right with France, Hitler overcame the natural caution of many of his military commanders and they subsequently made several bad moves because they put their faith in Hitler's gut instinct.
The man was barking mad and utterly delusional. He believed everyone was rotten to the core and he only had to kick the door in for the building to crash down. He thought the same about UK even though the UK was out producing Germany in most significant arms like fighters. He thought he could take his time when in fact the time had passed.
Hitler, despite his vaunted strategic foresight, just couldn't recognize the difference between a Halifax and a Quisling, and in the surprise arrival at the channel coast, allowed wishful thinking to settle in. That doesn't change the villain/hero relationship. Churchill knew his people and their proud history, as Margaret Thatcher did in her time, and so did Queen Boadica in hers. Even today, I believe most British people, though they may mourn their losses, understand and accept their necessity.
Cheers,
Wes
Yes, but he convinced 70-odd million Germans and allies to follow him to war in 1939 only twenty years since they had last been defeated. The man knew which buttons to press, crazy or not, so to just write him off as some type of dribbling loon is to underestimate his evil genius.
Mind you, in defence of the Germans, a supposedly more educated and erudite populace still gave over 10.2 million votes to Jeremy Corbyn, and he couldn't find a button in Panasonic warehouse!
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Oh look...a Martlet.
(Image credit: our very own Clave)
(Image credit: our very own Clave)
Would they have been any use in the Battle of Britain?
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,311
- Jun 25, 2013
He had quite a lot of help, including from the beaten German military commanders, especially in selling the false "stab in the back" story. One of the major allied errors at Versailles was not having a triumphal march down Kaiserstrasse.
buffnut453
Captain
That's an interesting question. Maybe we should have a thread that discusses the topic?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
If the Royal Navy could have acquired a substantial number of them, I'd say yes.
Use them to sweep for low-level bomber intercept or have them stationed in the secondary areas (as was historically with the 804 Naval Squadron) to free up the Hurricanes and Spitfires for the high-action zones.
The afore-mentioned low level sweeps would allow the Hurries and Spits to remain up top to engage the escorts while the Martlet focused on the Dorniers and Heinkels.
You've just contradicted yourself in these two sentences, Mad Dog.
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After all he was a reasonable chap, just given what he wanted he wouldn't of asked for anything else would he ?
