Wildcat during the Battle of Britain

[GrauGeist]

Nope, not a worldbeater, but definitely much better than a lot of critics make out, and certainly far better than the P-40. Remember, Pokryshkin was choosing a P-39N to fight FW190As and Bf109Gs in 1944, and he shot down plenty of both. I don't remember any ace of any airforce in 1944 flying the P-40N by choice, not unless they had zero other options. That says a lot about the P-39. You can mutter about Pokryshkin only fighting at low level all you like, an FW190 is still an FW190, and probably at least the A5 variant in 1944.

HUGE difference between the P-39 of 1942 and 1944.
To touch back on Welch for just a moment, he was flying a P-40B when he downed those four A6Ms (and two probable), not a P-40E, not a P-40N, etc.

As for "distances", you do realize the 36th FS was based out of Milne Bay (New Guinea) from the latter half of 1942, right?
That puts them well within range of IJA AND IJA air elements.
Even prior to that, the 36th FS escorted B-26s of the 33rd BG to New Guinea and back from Port Moresby, so I'm not following the range issue.

And then, we have a single VVS ace being used to prop up the uber-P-39 thing. There were thousands of P-39s produced, so it would seem that out of the many pilots who flew it, there would be more than one (or two, if we count the other pilot who the P-38 fans or Curtiss or whoever is trying to discredit) that would have spoken up for it.

Also, Pokryshkin's unit converted to La-7s in 1944 - although there is rumors that he flew a P-63 later. But the fact remains, that he was not flying a P-39 by 1944.

 

[Mad Dog]

Yes

Regarding the wing guns, the Soviets often removed all the wing guns, .30s or .50s, because they considered the 20mm or 37mm and two .50s enough to deal with the types of Luftwaffe aircraft they met most often (Bf109s, FW190s, Ju87s and Ju88s). They never had to face something really big and tough like the B-17, but some USAAC pilots (like Lt. Col. William A. Shomo) reckoned the 37mm was powerful enough to knock even a B-17 out of the sky. Whilst the 37mm had a very slow rate of fire and a banana-like trajectory, a single HE hit was enough to do terminal damage to a Bf109 or FW190. Soviet pilots describe Luftwaffe aircraft as "disintegrating" when hit by the big cannon shells.
The P-39 design included space in the nose for the brass from the nose guns to collect. As I understand it, this was because there was a worry that the big 37mm shells might tumble along the fuselage and cause damage, or fly into the radiator, and not originally due to the center of gravity issue. It also reduced drag and simplified manufacturing as it was one less hole in the fuselage. The brass was emptied out after the plane landed by the ground crew. One hidden bonus was that it reduced the movement of the center of gravity when the guns were fired. Soon after the P-39 entered US service, pilots reported that planes without loaded guns could be made to tumble backwards in a high-speed stall. After wind-tunnel tests, the problem was traced to the center of gravity and the manual was updated to state that the aircraft should always be flown with full ammo, empty brass or a ballast weight in the nose.

 

[GrauGeist]

It's been a rather "interesting" conversation about the P-39 (in the middle of a Wildcat discussion), but this bit about keeping thirty empty 37mm casings in the nose to preserve the plane's Cog has just entered the realm of steep bullshit.
The bulk of a cartridge's weight is the projectile (bullet), the brass, while having some weight to it, is less than the balance of an un-spent cartridge.
Otherwise, Me262s would have gone ass over appetite after expending all their 30mm cannon rounds from their Mk108s (which recklessly ejected the shells into oblivion).
Now, you remove the Oldsmobile T9 cannon from the nose of the P-39, And you will most certainly have a (genuine) Cog issue.

 

[wuzak]

The Tomahawks the RAF had ordered from Curtis were Model H81-A2 and had external self-sealing liners (Tomahawk MkIIA) or internally-lined fuel tanks (MkIIB), and all had seat armour and a bullet-proof windscreen. The unarmoured P-40s received were from the French order and were Curtis H81-A1 models, and were absorbed into the RAF as Tomahawk MkIs. The MkIs were only used for training, the MkIIs were sent to the Desert.

But it was only the Tomahawk Mk I that was remotely close to being in time for the BoB. The Mk IIs started turning up mid 1941, the P-40B (on which the Mk II was based) first flew in March 1941.

 

[Mad Dog]

....but this bit about keeping thirty empty 37mm casings in the nose to preserve the plane's Cog has just entered the realm of steep bullshit.
The bulk of a cartridge's weight is the projectile (bullet), the brass, while having some weight to it, is less than the balance of an un-spent cartridge....

I don't have a copy of any of the P-39 manuals, but if anyone does then it should be pretty easy to check for the warning. Is there one in the technical section? As I understand it, the weight of the empty brass didn't stop the CG moving aft but was enough to keep the CG inside the preferred limits.

 

[GrauGeist]

Seriously...

 

[Greyman]

I can only speak to the Airacobra -- but interestingly enough the aircraft kept all brass and link for all five weapons**. The empty cases of the 37-mm gun could jettisoned in the air if need be. This was the 15-rd version and this was thought to be unnecessary as there was plenty of room. Unlike the .5-inch case container.

It seems that in the 20-mm version the Hispano cases used the same container as the .5-inch cases -- so a full load of .50 cal could never be fired.


**I think I read this incorrectly, and the five containers detailed in the report are for the .50 link (x2 containers), .50 brass (x2 containers), and the 37mm brass (x1 container) -- and the .30s eject normally. Looking at photos of P-39s with clearly visible ejection ports in the wings makes me lean further in this direction.

 

[Mad Dog]

HUGE difference between the P-39 of 1942 and 1944.
To touch back on Welch for just a moment, he was flying a P-40B when he downed those four A6Ms (and two probable), not a P-40E, not a P-40N, etc....

And? The P-39D was superior to the P-40B too.

......As for "distances", you do realize the 36th FS was based out of Milne Bay (New Guinea) from the latter half of 1942, right?
That puts them well within range of IJA AND IJA air elements.
Even prior to that, the 36th FS escorted B-26s of the 33rd BG to New Guinea and back from Port Moresby, so I'm not following the range issue....

And yet Welch still only tangled with Japanese aircraft once whilst flying the P-39D in New Guinea. Same with Boyd. Yet in the one chance they got, they both shot down three enemy aircraft each.

......And then, we have a single VVS ace being used to prop up the uber-P-39 thing....

Did I mention the Soviet 216th Fighter Division had 28 aces with at least 15 kills whilst flying the P-39? I think there was grand total of nine P-38 aces and 26 P-51 aces with scores of 15 or higher. One of the Soviet P-39 aces was Nikolay Gulaev, who scored 41 victories in the P-39 in a year and five days, a faster rate than Pokryshkin, or Allied aces such as Richard Bong or Thomas McGuire. And that's not Soviet propaganda because the Soviet authorities downplayed victories in foreign aircraft.

......Also, Pokryshkin's unit converted to La-7s in 1944 - although there is rumors that he flew a P-63 later. But the fact remains, that he was not flying a P-39 by 1944.

Pokryskin was ordered to convert to the La-7 becasue the Soviets wanted the propaganda of their top ace flying a Soviet design. His Division had one unit which was equipped with the La-7 and Pokryshkin did not fly with them. The rest of his units had P-39s. One of Pokryshkin's friends, Alexander Klubov, was killed converting to the La-7 due to a hydraulic failure, so Pokryshkin decided he would rather stick with his reliable P-39N.
The P-63s didn't arrive at the Eastern Front until the spring of 1945 because the Soviets had originally promised they would only be used against the Japanese. Combat sorties with the P-63s didn't start until the early summer. Pokryshkin flew several models of P-39s, including a D, a K and two Ns and possibly a Q-15. Whilst his Division is said to have got 36 P-63s by the end of the War, Pokryshkin did not score any victories in that model and may not have even flown it until post-War.
So Pokryshkin was fighting in the P-39 from mid-1942 through 1944 and into 1945.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

the XP-39 prototype hit 390mph when it first flew on April 6, 1939.

That's Larry Bell hyperbole. He always talked a great flight, but was often hard pressed to send a plane to independent testing that would live up to his claims. My dad worked at Bell Niagara in '44 and '45. Larry's employees weren't fooled by his big talk.
Some of the Soviet procurement officers that worked the plant were pretty colorful characters. Most were former combat pilots who were injured and unable to fly combat any more. Frequently one would show up at the flight line and "claim" a P63 fresh off the assembly line for a "production test flight", pull a Russian flight test report form out of his briefcase, and blast off. Shortly, phone calls would start to come in from area farmers about some crazy pilot chasing cows in a fighter plane. Usually they would first call the better known Curtis plant downtown, who would give them Bell's number. Curtis test pilots had a little more self discipline.

 

[rochie]

Yes, Churchill started it by calling Hitler's bluff, knowing that doing so would force the Germans to attempt an invasion. Hitler's 1939 plan assumed that all he had to do after the fall of France was threaten the UK with a U-boat blockade and bombing, and Churchill would accept a negotiated peace. Hitler even had this crazy idea that Britain would then join the Nazis in attacking the USSR! Some of this was due to the British Foreign Secretary, Lord Halifax, who had secretly tried to open peace talks via Sweden on May 20th 1940, before France had even fallen. Halifax knew Hitler wanted a deal with the British Empire because Halifax had discussed it with Hermann Goering in 1937. On June 30th, Jodl at the OKW issued a communique stating that they had won the War and that a British compromise was inevitable. Even as late as July 2nd 1940, Hitler instructed von Ribbentrop to write a speech to again offer a negotiated peace. Churchill told Hitler to get stuffed. Hitler was left with no real option but to try and carry out his threats, to do otherwise risked leaving an enemy in his rear when he turned to attack the Soviets. The Kanalkampf attacks, the first phase of the Battle, started on July 4th 1940. So, yes, Churchill started the BoB.

That is the stupidest thing i have ever heard !

So following your logic.
Hitler invades mainland europe, he then turns to Britain and says surrender or else.
Britain doesnt surrender so its Britains fault the Battle of Britain starts !

Wow

 

[XBe02Drvr]

That is the stupidest thing i have ever heard !

So following your logic.
Hitler invades mainland europe, he then turns to Britain and says surrender or else.
Britain doesnt surrender so its Britains fault the Battle of Britain starts !

Wow

It's always the victim's fault! Ask any bully.

 

[pbehn]

That is the stupidest thing i have ever heard !

So following your logic.
Hitler invades mainland europe, he then turns to Britain and says surrender or else.
Britain doesnt surrender so its Britains fault the Battle of Britain starts !

Wow

The UK built a navy airforce and air defence system just to surrender without a shot being fired. If that was the aim, Halifax would have been made PM.

 

[Shortround6]

And? The P-39D was superior to the P-40B too.

First P-39D was delivered in April 1941.
Last P-40B was delivered April 24th 1941.
1st P-40D for the was delivered in May of 1940.

In the spring of 1941 Curtiss was averaging over 150 fighters per month, Bell was doing good to get over 10 in one month.

 

[pbehn]

the fact the USAAC persisted with the P-39 is itself a measure of just how bad the situation was in American fighter production, including the P-40. The P-40 when it was accepted into service was already acknowledge to be obsolete compared to European aircraft; the P-36 had already long passed its design zenith; the P-38 was still looking like a risky and expensive bet; the P-35 was past obsolete, and the civil war going on in Seversky/Republic did not bode well for future developments (indeed, Republic were behind the curve until they got the P-47 out the door); and Vultee's P-48/63 was not promising to be any great step forward. The USAAC was so desperate they even considered the Douglas XP-48, which had a ridiculous prediction of a 525mph top speed from a 525hp engine - lunacy! Indeed, it seems quite clear that the state of the US fighter design and the clout of being the biggest pursuit manufacturer saved the P-40 program, but the mediocre P-40 also kept the P-38 and P-39 from being cancelled.
.

Governments don't have time machines, what hasn't been done cant be done just by praying or wishing to go back and re do it. The P-39 wasn't useless, the Russians got a lot of use out of it. The P-40 wasn't useless many forces got a lot of good use out of it. By the time the USA declared war on Japan it was producing the P-47, P-38 and P-51 (as Mustang MkI). The Wildcat had been much improved, the Corsair was flying and 6 months away from introduction. High power radial engines had been developed and production was increasing rapidly while a source for two stage supercharged V12 engines had been found and put in train. In the short term the USA was desperately short of the planes (and other stuff) it needed, but the USA didn't declare war. You produce what you can until you don't need it, so the poorer designs were made and then quickly fell by the wayside, or were used in other roles that are still important like advanced trainers.

 

[pbehn]

First P-39D was delivered in April 1941.
Last P-40B was delivered April 24th 1941.
1st P-40D for the was delivered in May of 1940.

In the spring of 1941 Curtiss was averaging over 150 fighters per month, Bell was doing good to get over 10 in one month.

I am having trouble with timelines, could you confirm that the USA was not actually at war in the spring of 1941, because when the UK declared war it didn't have 150 Spitfires in service and many of its Hurricanes had dope wings, wooden props and 85 octane fuel.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The UK built a navy airforce and air defence system just to surrender without a shot being fired.

I thought that was the Dutch?

 

[pbehn]

I thought that was the Dutch?

A bit of an insult to them TBH, if any place was indefensible from a German invasion it was the Netherlands in 1939-40.

 

[GrauGeist]

It appears someone has been spending way too much time in War Thunder forums.

This entire P-39 "conversation" belongs in the forum's "What-If" section under "alternate history and fantasy".

And most importantly, if one is going to cherry-pick from Wiki to try and defend a point, at least be aware of the timeline of said point.

 

[rochie]

A bit of an insult to them TBH, if any place was indefensible from a German invasion it was the Netherlands in 1939-40.

Very insulting !

 

[BiffF15]

It's always the victim's fault! Ask any bully.

You've been watching CNN again I see...