Worst mass produced, monoplane, single-engine, single-seat, retractable undercarriage fighter of WW2?

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Has anyone actually read the article reviewed here? Brewster Buffalo: AAHS Article
Thanks for sharing the article on the Buffalo. I did read it, and I agree with Admiral Beez, you won't convince me the Buffalo was the worst fighter in this category. Certainly, one could argue that the negative perception of the type was in part due to the very limited combat experience of its pilots. Both Germany and Japan had been involved in conflicts earlier and benefited significantly from that experience. Look at how Wildcat pilots improved within just 6 months from the start of the war and were able to close the gap with the Zero using the proper tactics and strengths of the Wildcat while leveraging the weaknesses of the Zero. The litmus test would be to have a head to head dogfight, with pilots of equal caliber, and no advantage going into the fight: The Buffalo vs the Zero. The Zero also benefited from production changes that continued to improve the type whereas the Buffalo was abandoned because the U.S. had so many other aircraft manufacturers producing all new types. I'm convinced there is another aircraft that is worse.
 
More Me163s would be good for Allies...

So would the Bachem Natter
The Me163 was brilliant. I just wouldn't want to fly in one. Gotta remember the Komet was a "point" design, strictly developed for intercepting bomber formations. Period.
 
The Me163 was brilliant. I just wouldn't want to fly in one. Gotta remember the Komet was a "point" design, strictly developed for intercepting bomber formations. Period.

There are no denying its technological accomplishments. Unfortunately, it also has a negative kill ratio and was extremely vulnerable towards the end of each flight. IIRC it also suffered from the slow firing cannon limiting its lethality during high speed passes.
 
Was not aware of the negative kill ratio, nor the slow firing 20mm cannons. I've always believed the Germans had very good machine guns and cannons. Certainly they'd gotten a lot of use in their other fighter aircraft. Did they use a different cannon in the Me163?
 
I vote for the I-16. Terrible gun platform and while fast it was hard to handle for the pilot

Depends who you talk to - Pilot reports state it was difficult to take off and land but made a good account of itself over Spain until the Bf109 came along and it held it's own during the Nomonhan Incident. Once it's flight characteristics were mastered, it was a good fighter for it's day. It was also one of the first, if not the first aircraft to achieve an aerial kill with a missile (unguided).
 
Nevadak, according to Wikipedia (and trust me, as one with a degree in military history Wikipedia is not the end all of sources) they are stating that the Me163 had between 9-18 allied kills against 10 losses. So, at worst the aircraft was had nearly a 1:1 kill ratio or better (depending on the source)

 

The cannons were not that slow firing - 600 rd/min for one 30mm, 750-800 rd/min for one MK 151/20. Or, talk 10 rd/sec for a single MK 108; the Me 163 carried two cannons.
 

Here is text I copied from Wikipedia, I have read same comments from other sources. This is just the easiest to grab:

In service, the Me 163 turned out to be difficult to use against enemy aircraft. Its tremendous speed and climb rate meant a target was reached and passed in a matter of seconds. Although the Me 163 was a stable gun platform, it required excellent marksmanship to bring down an enemy bomber. The Kometwas equipped with two 30 mm (1.18 inch) MK 108 cannons which had a relatively low muzzle velocity of 540 meters per second (1,772 feet/sec), and were accurate only at short range, making it almost impossible to hit a slow moving bomber. Four or five hits were typically needed to take down a B-17.[32]

Numerous sources list the Comet as having achieved 9 or 10 kills versus 14 losses. The best researched appears to be:

The Me 163B Komet, Development and Operational Experience
Albert C. Piccirillo
 

Greetings Spitlead, agreed it wasn't terribly upside down, but the source I just posted had it at 10K vs 14L

Thanks! Kk
 
The cannons were not that slow firing - 600 rd/min for one 30mm, 750-800 rd/min for one MK 151/20. Or, talk 10 rd/sec for a single MK 108; the Me 163 carried two cannons.
Perhaps the cannons were "slow" given the speed the aircraft was flying. It's all relative. If I'm not mistaken, some of the early jets actually ran into their own bullets when firing their guns. Can't recall the aircraft (F7U Cutlass?). The Me163 was definitely in the speed class with some of the early jets.
 
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Perhaps the cannons were "slow" given the speed the aircraft was flying. It's all relative.

Somehow the German pilots have had no problem to kill, en masse, the slow moving Welligtons with MG FF that fired at 570 m/s, or the bit faster and much smaller Battles or Pz.630s, or the fast moving and small fighters in 1939-40 with same weapon, yet they were unable to make hits on a huge & slow B-17 with MK 108. Japanese pilots have made a literal killing with their Type 99-1 that have had similar low-ish MV.
 
You have a couple of things going on with the MK 108 cannon, The rate of fire wasn't really that bad, it just wasn't anything above average. However in the Me 163 you had a shorter time of engagement. Now we go back to the velocity, is was about the slowest but then it is a 30mm shell so velocity doesn't fall off quite as bad as some 20mm ( I repeat, SOME). However the speed of the Me 163 was such that the pilot only had a short period of time to fire between when he got into effective range and and when he had to pull up or otherwise maneuver the plane to avoid a collision. A higher velocity gun would have allowed firing sooner and thus extended firing time, a faster firing gun would have allowed more shells to be fired in the same period of time, increasing the chances or number of hits.

Just for illustrations sake, I am making up numbers here, you have the Me 163 doing 500mph and the prop plane doing 400mph. The rocket plane on a stationary target has 25% less firing time with the same gun, adjust as you see fit for tail chase, nose attack, attack from the side. Rocket plane with it's higher speed may have to pull the guns off target sooner than the prop plane further shorting the firing time. Like I said. shorter time of engagement

The Gun was destructive, it was available, it just might not have been the best possible choice for the Me 163, although it may have been the best choice of what the germans had available.

As for the 109E vs the 1940 bombers?
Slower fighter may mean a longer time of engagment and/or a longer time to line up the shot/firing opportunity.
 


It wasn't just early jets, P-47s, P-51 and Corsairs also shot themselves down when shooting at trains and other ground targets, they'd fly into the bullets ricocheting off the ground and "ooops" get some holes in their shiny aircraft. It was probably the same with Tempests and Typhoons, any of the higher performance a/c of the day.
 
I beleive the jet that shot itself down was a Grumman F11 Tiger.

From WIki so take it for what it is.

"The F-11 Tiger is noted for being the first jet aircraft to shoot itself down.[3] On 21 September 1956, during a test-firing of its 20 mm (0.79 in) cannons, pilot Tom Attridge fired two bursts midway through a shallow dive. As the trajectory of the cannon rounds decayed, they ultimately crossed paths with the Tiger as it continued its descent, disabling it and forcing Attridge to crash-land the aircraft; he survived. "

Some accounts say the Tiger was going supersonic at some point during this time.

As for WW II aircraft shooting themselves down? This seems rather far fetched. At least for US and British planes using 20mm cannon and .50 cal machine guns.
The MV for those guns were over 1900mph and while the shells do slow down they are still going to be going at supersonic speeds over 1000yds from where they were fired.
It is going to take a truly extraordinary set of circumstances for a prop driven airplane to catch up to it's own shells.
 

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