Worst mass produced, monoplane, single-engine, single-seat, retractable undercarriage fighter of WW2?

[Kevin J]

There is little doubt that the Hurricane did much good work as a fighter bomber/close support aircraft. That does not mean that they were under any illusions as to how good it was as a fighter plane. Lets also remember that the Typhoon was close to being canceled at one point and production was little more than a trickle for the first year or so.

You also have to look at the results of the Bombing of Supermarine's Southampton works. from wiki;

"Production fell from 363 aircraft in the quarter before the raids to 177 and 179 respectively in the next two quarters. It took another nine months before it was back to 100 per month,"

Castle Bromwich had only started producing Spitfires in June of 1940 with 10 planes delivered that month (MK IIs)

The bombing of the Southampton works and subsequent dispersal cost at least 600 Spitfires if not more over the next year to year and a quarter and the uncertainty of Spitfire production in the fall of 1940 /and winter/spring of 1941 may have helped the placement of Hurricane orders during that time. The Hurricane II may not have been what was wanted but what they could get.

The issue you miss here is that both Hurricane and Spitfire production is going flat out with a 50 % increase in deliveries during the Bob so there was always going to be a drop off after the Battle. You've probably only lost. I doubt if you've lost more 250 in the following 6 months.

 

[wuzak]

The issue you miss here is that both Hurricane and Spitfire production is going flat out with a 50 % increase in deliveries during the Bob so there was always going to be a drop off after the Battle. You've probably only lost. I doubt if you've lost more 250 in the following 6 months.

British Weekly Fighter Aircraft Production, Apr-Oct 1940

British Aircraft Production, 1938-1944 – Monthly Deliveries of New Aircraft — Articles | history

Fighter production did have a dip towards the end of 1940, but recovered after. Production of fighters increased at least until 1944.

Not sure why you would think that production of fighters would drop after the Battle of Britain. They still needed as many fighters as they could get, which included buying P-40s, P-51s, etc. as well as domestic production.

 

[Kevin J]

British Weekly Fighter Aircraft Production, Apr-Oct 1940

British Aircraft Production, 1938-1944 – Monthly Deliveries of New Aircraft — Articles | history

Fighter production did have a dip towards the end of 1940, but recovered after. Production of fighters increased at least until 1944.

Not sure why you would think that production of fighters would drop after the Battle of Britain. They still needed as many fighters as they could get, which included buying P-40s, P-51s, etc. as well as domestic production.

You're contradicting yourself and then confirming what I've said.

 

[tengu1979]

Well True. Still wouldnt call it worst fighter of ww2. I would take it over MS406, Fiat G. 50 and Bloch 152 any day.

 

[wuzak]

You're contradicting yourself and then confirming what I've said.

I am? I did?

You said: "both Hurricane and Spitfire production is going flat out with a 50 % increase in deliveries during the Bob so there was always going to be a drop off after the Battle. "

I'm not sure why an increase in production before the battle would lead to a decrease after the battle. Where is the logic there?

Shortround's explanation makes more sense - production was interrupted by outside influences. That is bombing. Certainly Spitfire production was back to near its peak during the BoB by the end of 1940, and would increase even more in 1941 as Castle Bromwich got into full swing.

 

[Kevin J]

I am? I did?

You said: "both Hurricane and Spitfire production is going flat out with a 50 % increase in deliveries during the Bob so there was always going to be a drop off after the Battle. "

I'm not sure why an increase in production before the battle would lead to a decrease after the battle. Where is the logic there?

Shortround's explanation makes more sense - production was interrupted by outside influences. That is bombing. Certainly Spitfire production was back to near its peak during the BoB by the end of 1940, and would increase even more in 1941 as Castle Bromwich got into full swing.

It's called overtime mate, people work 7 to 8 hours per day, then get paid overtime, 28 days holiday even company paid sick pay, always have done. During the BoB more overtime was worked. You can't keep that up for more than 3 months.

 

[Kevin J]

I am? I did?

You said: "both Hurricane and Spitfire production is going flat out with a 50 % increase in deliveries during the Bob so there was always going to be a drop off after the Battle. "

I'm not sure why an increase in production before the battle would lead to a decrease after the battle. Where is the logic there?

Shortround's explanation makes more sense - production was interrupted by outside influences. That is bombing. Certainly Spitfire production was back to near its peak during the BoB by the end of 1940, and would increase even more in 1941 as Castle Bromwich got into full swing.

So my 300 Hurricanes and 150 Spitfires pcm during the Bob comes from memory, from a book purchased in the seventies which I no longer have. It also included rebuilt fighters so it would be slightly higher than your figures for new build deliveries. Then comes the problem of reconciling the Luftwaffe claims of 1200 Spitfires and 2000 Hurricanes destroyed. Now somewhere on here, I've seen the claim that post war analysis of Luftwaffe claims vs actual losses was 7:4 which would reduce their actual victories to 1840 or so, matching my assertion that the RAF actually received 1800 fighters between July and October 1940.

 

[wuzak]

I just graphed the data from the website British Weekly Fighter Aircraft Production, Apr-Oct 1940

There is a dip of production about the middle of August, at the height of the BoB, for both the Hurricane and Spitfire.

There is a dip of Spitfire production in late September, not really for the Hurricane.

There were three raids on the Supermarine works in September 1940. First was a small raid on the 15th by Me 110s, which did little damage.

The second was on the 24th of September by Me 110s which did little damage to the factory, but killed 42 people and injured 161. Three aircraft did attack later in the afternoon as well.

The thirds was on the 26th of September, with 60 He 111s and 60 Me 110s. This destroyed the two Type 317 prototypes, three Spitfires and damaged 20. 55 workers were killed and 92 injured.

This lines up with the dip in the graph in late September.

Overall the trend for Spitfire production was up over this period, while Hurricane production peaked before the battle and trended slightly down afterwards.

 

[Kevin J]

View attachment 584340

I just graphed the data from the website British Weekly Fighter Aircraft Production, Apr-Oct 1940

There is a dip of production about the middle of August, at the height of the BoB, for both the Hurricane and Spitfire.

There is a dip of Spitfire production in late September, not really for the Hurricane.

There were three raids on the Supermarine works in September 1940. First was a small raid on the 15th by Me 110s, which did little damage.

The second was on the 24th of September by Me 110s which did little damage to the factory, but killed 42 people and injured 161. Three aircraft did attack later in the afternoon as well.

The thirds was on the 26th of September, with 60 He 111s and 60 Me 110s. This destroyed the two Type 317 prototypes, three Spitfires and damaged 20. 55 workers were killed and 92 injured.

This lines up with the dip in the graph in late September.

Overall the trend for Spitfire production was up over this period, while Hurricane production peaked before the battle and trended slightly down afterwards.

You're not going to decrease production in the middle of the battle without good reason. My good reason is rebuilds. A drop in Spitfire production during September for Spitfires, that would be the effect of production dispersal after the Supermarine works raids. With my figures, you can explain away the Luftwaffe claims.

 

[Shortround6]

The issue you miss here is that both Hurricane and Spitfire production is going flat out with a 50 % increase in deliveries during the Bob so there was always going to be a drop off after the Battle. You've probably only lost. I doubt if you've lost more 250 in the following 6 months.

try looking at the figures in the link Wuzak posted.
Production is never a smooth curve.
Spitfire production increases from June on as Castle Bromwich comes on line. Supermarine Southampton is bombed several times in Sept. with differing amounts of physical damage and employ losses,
24 September 1940 42 were killed and 161 injured many nearby houses were destroyed with terrible loss of life
26 September more than 70 tons of bombs were dropped, with seven bombs directly hitting the Woolston works and one hitting the Itchen works. the Woolston works were never rebuilt.
55 were killed and 92 injured.
mid November 1940, 35 workshops were up and running in the dispersal scheme.

This is not a let down after the BoB was over. The numbers drop from peaks of 40 Spits every two weeks back down to the 20s of before Castle Bromwich came on line. Castle Bromwich is doing much of the production in Oct and Nov. As noted above it would take more than a year for the Southampton dispersed workshops to equal the production of the Woolston and Itchen works before the raids.

You might want to check on your rather bogus hours and days worked numbers too.

 

[Kevin J]

try looking at the figures in the link Wuzak posted.
Production is never a smooth curve.
Spitfire production increases from June on as Castle Bromwich comes on line. Supermarine Southampton is bombed several times in Sept. with differing amounts of physical damage and employ losses,
24 September 1940 42 were killed and 161 injured many nearby houses were destroyed with terrible loss of life
26 September more than 70 tons of bombs were dropped, with seven bombs directly hitting the Woolston works and one hitting the Itchen works. the Woolston works were never rebuilt.
55 were killed and 92 injured.
mid November 1940, 35 workshops were up and running in the dispersal scheme.

This is not a let down after the BoB was over. The numbers drop from peaks of 40 Spits every two weeks back down to the 20s of before Castle Bromwich came on line. Castle Bromwich is doing much of the production in Oct and Nov. As noted above it would take more than a year for the Southampton dispersed workshops to equal the production of the Woolston and Itchen works before the raids.

You might want to check on your rather bogus hours and days worked numbers too.

Isn't it magic how if you look at the annual production figures, divide by 12, multiply by 3 then you get the magic 900 the RAF said it lost. Obviously the Luftwaffe wasn't told that the BoB was only August to October till later. Ho ho. I imagine the Germans must have been scratching their heads at some point wondering how their 3200 victory claims was only 900 in reality. Ho ho. The reverse happens during 1941 with the the RAF wildly over estimating their victories over German fighters.

 

[fubar57]

Ho ho?

 

[fubar57]

 

[Kevin J]

View attachment 584402​

Okay. In the midst of the battle, production actually drops. How do you explain that one away? There's the same sort of problem with the Luftwaffe numbers post BoB. Bf 109F-1 totals 210 aircraft about 30 pcm finishing in Feb-41, yet there is only a handful in operation end Jan 41. In the whole of 1941 they only lose a 100 plus fighters over the Channel Front and yet they've produced 1200 plus F-2's from February and 1800 plus F-4's from July.

 

[fubar57]

Lots of bombs and deaths happened in September...1939-1940 – The War comes to Southampton

 

[buffnut453]

Production drops happen for a number of reasons. As fubar57 pointed out, bombs hitting the factories or houses of the workers would be a major cause of disruption. Production drops can also happen when a factory changes over production from one variant to another. For example, changing Spitfire production from A wings to B wings involved numerous detail changes that had to be implemented at production scale. It would take some time to retool jigs and frames to complete the changeover, likely resulting in a reduction in output.

 

[wuzak]

Even just having an air raid warning could disrupt production, let alone the facility actually being bombed.

Apart from June to July, the planned production increased through the period.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Ho ho?

Or as the old saying goes... "Ho Ho Ho... Hoe"

 

[Kevin J]

Or as the old saying goes... "Ho Ho Ho... Hoe"

I'd say you get a drop in production to build more spares. Ho, ho, ho, hoe.

 

[wuzak]

You don't think that production contracts, especially for engines, included the provision of spare parts?