Worst US made twin engined aircraft used by Britain in WW2

[Admiral Beez]

Without a doubt the "worst" would be the Lockheed P-322. It was known as the "Castrated P-38." After Pearl Harbor, most of these airplanes were retained in the USA

Did the British get any?

 

[Greyman]

Good info (as always) from Joe Baugher: Lightning I for RAF

 

[wuzak]

Did the British get any?

At least one.

(Actually 3, from the link Greyman posted.)

 

[Admiral Beez]

At least one.

(Actually 3, from the link Greyman posted.)

Then we might have the winner.

 

[Shortround6]

The Lockheed 322 never went operational and it got to England late. By the time the first of the three made it to England the Lockheed company was delivering P-38Fs to the USAAC.

If we are going to consider such a small number of aircraft then perhaps the Used Lockheed 10s and 12s the were impressed and given the British might count?

 

[SaparotRob]

Weren't the Lockheed 10's and 12's actually useful?

 

[GrauGeist]

Weren't the Lockheed 10's and 12's actually useful?

The Electra and Electra Junior were too small to do anything but training and liaison duties.

 

[Tkdog]

Both of which are useful, if not especially martial, functions.

 

[pinehilljoe]

In this category all the planes delivered seem to me not fit into a worst category. Baltimores/Havocs, Mitchells, Dakotas, Hudsons, Catalinas, Marauders. The Lightnings were so limited, I don't think they fit

 

[Milosh]

Baltimores/Havocs

These were different a/c. Boston/Havoc were the same family.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Baltimore was Martin's Model 187, which was mostly an export, the Havoc was Douglas' export version of the A-20.

I think he meant Boston/Havoc, to be honest, as both export versions of the A-20 ended up in service with the RAF.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The RAF also had a current twin-engined fighter, and may have decided that installing Merlins into the P-38s they had would not be worth the engineering involved. I believe a Merlin-engined P-38 variant was considered (the largely mythical P-38K?) by Lockheed but not proceeded with.

The decision to put Merlins in the P-38 would not have been made entirely by the British and was a lot more difficult than it seems. The P-38K wasn't mythical as one was actually produced and flown unlike the Merlin P-38. (P-38K-1-LO built. This prototype (42-13558) combined a P-38G-10-LO airframe with more powerful 1425 hp V-1710-75/77 (V-1710F-15) engines; Joe B.)

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Without a doubt the "worst" would be the Lockheed P-322. It was known as the "Castrated P-38." The turbos were removed and the engines were the right-handed Allison V-1710-C15, a good engine but the "P-38" really needed counter-rotating propellers, i.e., one left turning and the other right turning. These airplanes were acquired when the French were overrun by the Nazis. The French wanted the engines to be exactly the same as the engines in their P-40 Tomahawks, hence no turbos, and both right turning.
After Pearl Harbor, most of these airplanes were retained in the USA and used for pilot training, with many being refit with L/R turning V-1710-F2 engines, but still without turbos.

In what way were they "the worse"? The British fully knew what they were getting and the original contract eventually called for deliveries with aircraft that had turbochargers installed (RAF name Lightning II).

 

[ddwhitney]

Did the British get any?

The French and British jointly contracted for 667 P-322s. With the fall of France the entire order was taken over by the British and the order amended so that the final 524 would be powered by Allison V-1710-F5 handed engines. The first two aircraft were shipped to England in January and March 1942, and a third, was converted by Lockheed to V-1710-F2R/L engines and shipped to England in March 1942 as well. These were the only P-322s to reach England.
In June 1941 the US Joint Aircraft Committee decided only 143 V-1710-C15 powered P-322s would be built, and the balance of the contract powered by the V-1710-FR/Ls. A total of 23 P-322s without handed engines were actually delivered. With the exception of the three aircraft shipped to England, the balance were taken over as advanced trainers for the USAAC with the batch 524 finished a P-38F-13/15 and P-38G-13/15 models. See "Vee's for Victory" for additional information.

 

[GrauGeist]

What's interesting, is how many US types the British ended up with, that were destined for France.

France had a substantial aircraft manufacturing base and if they had focused more on their native designs and not imported US types pre-war, Britain may not have had many of these on hand.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The French and British jointly contracted for 667 P-322s. With the fall of France the entire order was taken over by the British and the order amended so that the final 524 would be powered by Allison V-1710-F5 handed engines. The first two aircraft were shipped to England in January and March 1942, and a third, was converted by Lockheed to V-1710-F2R/L engines and shipped to England in March 1942 as well. These were the only P-322s to reach England.
In June 1941 the US Joint Aircraft Committee decided only 143 V-1710-C15 powered P-322s would be built, and the balance of the contract powered by the V-1710-FR/Ls. A total of 23 P-322s without handed engines were actually delivered. With the exception of the three aircraft shipped to England, the balance were taken over as advanced trainers for the USAAC with the batch 524 finished a P-38F-13/15 and P-38G-13/15 models. See "Vee's for Victory" for additional information.

And if you look at this time line compared to US orders, the RAF order kept the production line open.

 

[fastmongrel]

What's interesting, is how many US types the British ended up with, that were destined for France.

France had a substantial aircraft manufacturing base and if they had focused more on their native designs and not imported US types pre-war, Britain may not have had many of these on hand.

One of the major reasons France ordered so many US aircraft was because the French government in 1936 decided to nationalise and reorganise on regional lines the aviation industry. This disrupted the design and development of many aircraft.

Take the example of the Dewoitine 520, the design work on it started in 1936 but the disruption of Dewoitine being merged into SNCAM meant hardly any proper work was done until 1938 and production didnt start until 1940. The factories that built propellers, gunsights, undercarriage and oxygen systems also suffered from the nationalisation and regionalisation leading to shortages of all the above into 1940. Imagine the French Air Force with a thousand D520s in May 1940 the LW might not have had enough aircraft and pilots left to take on the RAF in the Battle of Britain.

 

[Admiral Beez]

One of the major reasons France ordered so many US aircraft was because the French government in 1936 decided to nationalise and reorganise on regional lines the aviation industry. This disrupted the design and development of many aircraft.

Take the example of the Dewoitine 520, the design work on it started in 1936 but the disruption of Dewoitine being merged into SNCAM meant hardly any proper work was done until 1938 and production didnt start until 1940. The factories that built propellers, gunsights, undercarriage and oxygen systems also suffered from the nationalisation and regionalisation leading to shortages of all the above into 1940. Imagine the French Air Force with a thousand D520s in May 1940 the LW might not have had enough aircraft and pilots left to take on the RAF in the Battle of Britain.

Used correctly, I'd say the quantity of types of combat aircraft the French has could have held on against France. What the French needed was well led and equipped ground forces. Proper tanks, like the Pzkw III with its three man turret and radio. And France desperately needed a tactical genius like Napoleon. France has the aircraft it needs, but not the leadership.

 

[ddwhitney]

The decision to put Merlins in the P-38 would not have been made entirely by the British and was a lot more difficult than it seems. The P-38K wasn't mythical as one was actually produced and flown unlike the Merlin P-38. (P-38K-1-LO built. This prototype (42-13558) combined a P-38G-10-LO airframe with more powerful 1425 hp V-1710-75/77 (V-1710F-15) engines; Joe B.)

 

[ddwhitney]

Lockheed considered and studied putting Merlins in the P-38 at least three different times during the course of the war.
Compared to the competing V-1710 with its turbosuperchargers there was little, if any, performance improvement with the heavy Merlins.
However the significant issue was that the Merlins were much less fuel efficient and could not be fitted with a turbo, thereby considerably shortening the range of the P-38, one of the signature advantages of the Allison powered P-38.