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Watching a documentary about US production, if the US had used all of its car industry and similar making Sherman tanks, the whole of US steel production could have been turned into tanks, a very different problem to that faced by Germany, but a problem still the same.If the U.S. built Sherman tanks with less armor, we could have cranked out more of them.
| Type | MIA | Cat E | credit sorties | MIA*100/credit | Lost*100/credit |
| B-17 | 1957 | 502 | 121882 | 1.61 | 2.02 |
| B-24 | 858 | 346 | 66154 | 1.30 | 1.82 |
| Type | B-17 | B-17 | B-17 | B-24 | B-24 | B-24 |
| Factory | Seattle | Long Beach | Burbank | San Diego | Willow Run | Fort Worth |
Jan-42 | 51,520 | |||||
Feb-42 | 44,800 | |||||
Mar-42 | 37,632 | na | na | 44,872 | ||
Apr-42 | 25,536 | na | na | 43,400 | ||
May-42 | 65,455 | na | na | 36,707 | ||
Jun-42 | 45,695 | na | na | 33,402 | ||
Jul-42 | 41,990 | na | na | 31,057 | ||
Aug-42 | 40,261 | na | na | 28,405 | ||
Sep-42 | 39,026 | na | na | 26,094 | 493,000 | |
Oct-42 | 37,050 | 151,082 | na | 24,082 | 187,920 | |
Nov-42 | 35,815 | 103,240 | na | 24,001 | 245,920 | |
Dec-42 | 32,851 | 90,233 | na | 24,303 | 222,024 | |
Jan-43 | 31,369 | 64,179 | 55,425 | 23,442 | 73,721 | |
Feb-43 | 29,393 | 58,209 | 50,554 | 24,429 | 44,824 | |
Mar-43 | 27,417 | 45,522 | 55,242 | 23,051 | 41,776 | 59,341 |
Apr-43 | 26,676 | 40,746 | 49,812 | 21,111 | 31,412 | 59,341 |
May-43 | 25,688 | 38,657 | 49,281 | 20,357 | 25,294 | 51,648 |
Jun-43 | 24,917 | 36,119 | 40,284 | 19,419 | 27,619 | 40,000 |
Jul-43 | 24,453 | 32,985 | 32,216 | 19,432 | 25,714 | 37,209 |
Aug-43 | 23,712 | 31,269 | 28,243 | 15,816 | 20,361 | 32,346 |
Sep-43 | 22,724 | 29,627 | 25,027 | 15,569 | 20,135 | 28,519 |
Oct-43 | 22,230 | 28,507 | 23,470 | 15,135 | 17,123 | 33,500 |
Nov-43 | 21,212 | 27,761 | 21,413 | 15,004 | 16,377 | 26,410 |
Dec-43 | 20,254 | 26,866 | 19,386 | 14,676 | 13,881 | 26,410 |
Jan-44 | 18,679 | 25,909 | 18,880 | 13,738 | 13,077 | 26,039 |
Feb-44 | 18,400 | 22,823 | 18,465 | 12,673 | 12,308 | 23,243 |
Mar-44 | 17,463 | 22,049 | 16,820 | 12,124 | 11,406 | 18,581 |
Apr-44 | 17,358 | 20,492 | 16,195 | 11,797 | 10,313 | 15,026 |
May-44 | 16,418 | 16,833 | 15,424 | 11,692 | 9,844 | 14,667 |
Jun-44 | 16,119 | 16,833 | 14,483 | 10,938 | 9,219 | 13,600 |
Jul-44 | 16,119 | 16,833 | 13,793 | 11,515 | 9,048 | 14,400 |
Aug-44 | 15,672 | 17,424 | 13,448 | 15,286 | 8,730 | 14,000 |
Sep-44 | 15,672 | 17,424 | 13,103 | 14,861 | 7,333 | 13,733 |
Oct-44 | 16,716 | 17,424 | 13,158 | 14,028 | 7,500 | 12,800 |
Nov-44 | 17,313 | 15,371 | 13,982 | 14,583 | 7,813 | 13,133 |
Dec-44 | 17,015 | 14,603 | 13,036 | 13,944 | 8,750 | 14,000 |
Jan-45 | 17,761 | 14,276 | 13,036 | 14,444 | 8,125 | |
Feb-45 | 17,910 | 14,793 | 13,091 | 14,085 | 8,281 | |
Mar-45 | 17,910 | 14,569 | 12,909 | 13,333 | 8,125 | |
Apr-45 | 20,896 | 14,172 | 12,727 | 13,235 | 8,047 | |
May-45 | na | 13,871 | 12,727 | 13,235 | 5,938 | |
Jun-45 | na | 13,776 | 12,545 | 12,206 | 3,750 | |
Jul-45 | na | 13,431 | 12,545 |
Also as noted before B-24 production was cancelled before B-17.
Watching a documentary about US production, if the US had used all of its car industry and similar making Sherman tanks, the whole of US steel production could have been turned into tanks, a very different problem to that faced by Germany, but a problem still the same.
Exactly the same as with Merlin engines then?When they captured some of the first Shermans, the Waffenampt and German industry was simply staggered at the high design and production standards - far in excess of anything they could manage - each German tank was effectively hand crafted. The double helix reduction gears in the final drive in particular astonished them - the best solution, but absolutely beyond the ability of Germany to mass produce - yet, an absolute breeze for US manufactures.
It was the car industry standards that were the Ace the US had. No parts were every to be hand fitted on a production line, every part from every one of a myriad suppliers had to be interchangeable. You could dismantle a Sherman picked at random from a couple of arsenals, shuffle the parts, and they fit back together first time. Compare that with a hard pressed German worker - He could spend hours hand filing and machining a 'new' part to get it to fit.
You do know than ford and gm had production lines in Germany and other european countries no?When they captured some of the first Shermans, the Waffenampt and German industry was simply staggered at the high design and production standards - far in excess of anything they could manage - each German tank was effectively hand crafted. The double helix reduction gears in the final drive in particular astonished them - the best solution, but absolutely beyond the ability of Germany to mass produce - yet, an absolute breeze for US manufactures.
It was the car industry standards that were the Ace the US had. No parts were every to be hand fitted on a production line, every part from every one of a myriad suppliers had to be interchangeable. You could dismantle a Sherman picked at random from a couple of arsenals, shuffle the parts, and they fit back together first time. Compare that with a hard pressed German worker - He could spend hours hand filing and machining a 'new' part to get it to fit.
They did dogfight with Zeros. Some successfully.
Americans never understand how hand filing replaced the long bow and knitting in European culture. If Tiger and Sheman tanks were not guarded around the clock, bored teenagers filed them down into pistons and crankshafts in a matter of hours.You do know than ford and gm had production lines in Germany and other european countries no?
Can you give a source for that hand crafting stuff of tanks?
Maybe within their sub-types, but the M4 varied greatly.You could dismantle a Sherman picked at random from a couple of arsenals, shuffle the parts, and they fit back together first time.
Been lurking in this thread for a while and got somewhat interested. I always assumed fatigue life was never really a concern in regards to a lot of ww2 aircraft and that extends to how I view warbirds. Warbirds seen today go through not even half of the stuff they'd have seen in wartime and I doubt many people in charge of 'em wanna throw them up a few Gs just for the sake of it. If you are interested though, a quick google search gave me this from the FAA although it's massive and I don't think it'd be entirely useful at allLoss of Texas Raiders has prompted calls for grounding warbirds "because they're so old."
As I noted on a related thread, that's absurd. There were/are DC-3s and C-47s with 80,000 airframe hours.
So...
Wonder what Boeing computed the 17's fatigue life to be--assuming the company did so. Certainly few expected Fortresses to be flying in numbers 80 years downstream. (Last figure I recall was 30 or more.).
Also interested in fatigue life estimates for any other warbirds. (IIRC the average Lancaster lasted 14-15 sorties.)
To end August 1941 there had been 134 B-17 and 57 B-24 built, which is why I started the manpower details in 1942, neither type was really in mass production before than. So where does the man hour data come from and what is the definition of an early and late B-17 and B-24? The actual data shows Ford invested a lot more in tooling than anyone else giving significant man hour savings but no real cost savings. Most, but not all, of the man hours difference between the average B-17 and B-24 is down to Ford, the rest to a combination of original design features, design changes, workforce experience, management and tooling. The conclusion average construction man hours can be used to determine over building and engineering is junk as is the B-17 was more expensive and time consuming claim.Early B-17 54,800 man hours Late B-17 18,600 man hours
Early B-24 24,800 man hours Late B-24. 14,500 man hours
Actually the aircraft that return save a lot of highly trained aircrew, worth far more than the aircraft.But the USAAF much preferred the B-24, they didn't want a super strong bomber that could limp home to be written off - they wanted a bomber that carried as big a bomb load as possible, as far as possible - the B-24 did that, and in war, all the planes were expendible. This was why the B-17 was kicked into touch while huge orders for the B-24 continued. It was the better warplane
From the documents I have I am struggling to find anything factually accurate in the above. There were 5,290 B-29 cancelled between August and November 1945, along with 115 B-32. You might want to consider your logic, if the B-24 was the throw away wartime only design then it would be the first to go as soon as the USAAF had something better and/or reduced need for combat forces, all those ex Europe B-24 groups to become B-29, while the B-17 stayed in service, including the new Air Sea Rescue versions.However, 5,168 of the effectively 'new' B-24N were cancelled May 31 1945. It was going to built through 1945/46
The USAAF had already decided to redesignate the B-24 as a 'medium bomber' and standardise on it, with the B-29 becoming their standard 'heavy bomber'.
No B-17 Bomber Squadrons had a war to go to after VE Day, they were all to convert to the newer types. Orders were cancelled before VE Day and only penny packets were delivered as the lines were cleared, many never to be delivered to the USAAF who had no use for them.
The US cancelled over 5,000 B-29's after VJ Day along with 1,885 B-32's
The Germans had a machine tool surplus, they did not need to run second shifts, it was one reason the bombing campaign had trouble reducing production. While the US was definitely ahead in mass production, the Germans were not hand crafting tanks.When they captured some of the first Shermans, the Waffenampt and German industry was simply staggered at the high design and production standards - far in excess of anything they could manage - each German tank was effectively hand crafted. The double helix reduction gears in the final drive in particular astonished them - the best solution, but absolutely beyond the ability of Germany to mass produce - yet, an absolute breeze for US manufactures.
If you look at the list of Sherman producers there were only 2 named as arsenals, they produced over half of all Shermans but little overlap in models,You could dismantle a Sherman picked at random from a couple of arsenals, shuffle the parts, and they fit back together first time. Compare that with a hard pressed German worker - He could spend hours hand filing and machining a 'new' part to get it to fit.
When they captured some of the first Shermans, the Waffenampt and German industry was simply staggered at the high design and production standards - far in excess of anything they could manage - each German tank was effectively hand crafted. The double helix reduction gears in the final drive in particular astonished them - the best solution, but absolutely beyond the ability of Germany to mass produce - yet, an absolute breeze for US manufactures.
It was the car industry standards that were the Ace the US had. No parts were every to be hand fitted on a production line, every part from every one of a myriad suppliers had to be interchangeable. You could dismantle a Sherman picked at random from a couple of arsenals, shuffle the parts, and they fit back together first time. Compare that with a hard pressed German worker - He could spend hours hand filing and machining a 'new' part to get it to fit.
Been lurking in this thread for a while and got somewhat interested. I always assumed fatigue life was never really a concern in regards to a lot of ww2 aircraft and that extends to how I view warbirds. Warbirds seen today go through not even half of the stuff they'd have seen in wartime and I doubt many people in charge of 'em wanna throw them up a few Gs just for the sake of it. If you are interested though, a quick google search gave me this from the FAA although it's massive and I don't think it'd be entirely useful at all
It's amazing what 200,000 Germans with rasps, hand files and hammers could achieveWhere would you get the idea the German were staggered by a Sherman tank? Any reference for that?They may well have been staggered by the number of them they encountered, but I've seen and been in a Sherman. The Planes of Fame has one that runs and is GREAT shape ( after considerable effort to make that so).
I've seen a Tiger at Fort Benning, Georgia.
I have to tell you, the Tiger is much more impressive.
I have always been impressed by the delicately inlayed scrollwork.
I worked with a guy who took a trip to Italy with a group looking into the possibility of co-producing MB-339 trainers. He said that a lot of their drawings had notes to "fit perfectly". Of course, we know how that worked out for Italian mass production during WW2.When they captured some of the first Shermans, the Waffenampt and German industry was simply staggered at the high design and production standards - far in excess of anything they could manage - each German tank was effectively hand crafted. The double helix reduction gears in the final drive in particular astonished them - the best solution, but absolutely beyond the ability of Germany to mass produce - yet, an absolute breeze for US manufactures.
It was the car industry standards that were the Ace the US had. No parts were every to be hand fitted on a production line, every part from every one of a myriad suppliers had to be interchangeable. You could dismantle a Sherman picked at random from a couple of arsenals, shuffle the parts, and they fit back together first time. Compare that with a hard pressed German worker - He could spend hours hand filing and machining a 'new' part to get it to fit.