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Critical Mach does NOT cause airplanes to break. All that happen at critical Mach number is you get local supersonic flow and shock waves form that can and doo blanket control durfaces, making control impossible until things slow down a bit.
Flutter will cause breakage in any aircraft.
Dynamic pressure would be a tough sell to me, especially in a fighter plane designed for typical fighter strength. If it's out of control due to shock waves, there will be little in the way of pitch control moments ... that's why if dives relatively straight.
That's the Drag Divergence Mach Number.
Critical Mach Number isn't really even a limit, if considering the whole airframe. The airflow can reach supersonic at points other than the wing (over a canopy is one place, or the hump on a 747), which would be the Crit Mach Number for that airframe.
Or that's my understanding, anyway.
Nearly. It's the lowest Mach number at which the airflow reaches but does not exceed the speed of sound over some point of the air frame. I've just read the entire thread discussing critical Mach numbers and at no point, unless I missed it, did anyone define what it is
Cheers
Steve
Not to argue with you, Bill, but the abrupt outer vertical line in my textbooks represents Vne, which is 90% of Vd, safe dive speed, beyond which the control surfaces and even flying surfaces will or may experience flutter.
It has zero to do with flutter as primary cause of the Do Not Exceed Q Load - but flutter is influenced by velocity forces to the degree that it introduced both torsion and bending of an aerodynamic structure (elevator, aileron, wing, etc.)to the point where stability of the restoring force is inadequate to prevent the oscillation - which by the way can occur well below a Q limit load. The P-38D, prior to installation of the improved wing fuselage filet experienced significant flutter due to a Combination of Bending and Torsion loads while immersed in the turbulent votices in the wake behind the inner wing. The solution is to stiffen the offending control surface so that the natural frequency is experienced at a higher velocity than V-Ne, or change the mass distribution (like a control horn)
The inner vertical line should be Vno. Operating above Vno and below Vne could cause structural failure if you encounter a 35-knot vertical gust, which is the bottom of the definition of extreme turbulence. This will add to (or subtract from) the flight load and could exceed design ± structure limits.
Almost - Vne is the boundary which combines G (positive and negative) loads plus indicial Gust loads for the A to B (positive G), A to E (negative G)points and thence from B to C and E to D points on the V-n diagram. At the far right the vertical limit C to D is the maximum Q which is 1/2*Rho*V^^2.
All of those boundaries in the V-n diagram are LIMIT loads, not Ultimate. A 'rule' of thumb is that the Q load limit is 1.2 to 1.5 max LEVEL speed, but the Definition is Q which obviously varies with altitude and equally obviously is only reached in a dive for conventional (non jet) a/c.
Then again, these are just basic aerodynamics texts. So they merely define and explain the terms and do not launch into excursions of structural statics theory or aerodynamics beyond what is needed for normal design or analysis. I'll take your word for the dynamic pressure, but I think Max Q is much more important for missiles than for WWII fighter aircraft. I could be wrong there.
Greg, Dynamic Pressure Q is the force that tore up the Spit in the dive, and caused structural damage to the Mark IV Mustang at .84M for example, but the Max Q for the Diagram (LIMIT LOAD threshold) for the Mustang was for dynamic pressure resulting from combination of Velocity and density somewhere between .75 and .82
I think the planes I am aware of will flutter destructively, at least in smooth air, before they get to Max Q. Maybe not. The Bell X-1A experienced control surface blanking and/or inertia coupling at Mach 2.44, and still didn't lose it's wings to dynamic pressure or sttructural overload even when it spun out of control supersonically, and Yeager survived it. Of course it was a VERY strong airplane.
Last time I flew RC, we had a little impromptu pylon race with unlimited aerobatic planes and I experienced control surface flutter going faster than I should have ... and lost an aileron. Can't miss that sound! I was lucky to get down and the servo had stripped gears to boot. I was lucky it was a plane with 2 aileron servos ... it was a Jerry's Big Boy. A GREAT aerobatic plane, but not a speedster. Mine was/is overpowered with an old MVVS 77 and a tuned pipe. Prior to that flight I always used the power for vertical maneuvers, not speed. Guess I have to go back to aerobatic flying with it .. after I fix the aileron. I think I'll add some counterbalance weight to it, too, since it DID flutter. If one aileron did, the other surfaces can't have been far behind.
If it has zero to do with flutter, then my aerodynamics texts must be wrong. Stranger thongs have happened. I acutally have two math books with errors in them.
First, I wasn't baiting you, no need to take exception. I simply have seen different explanations.
Because I have a different view sometimes is not due to me disagreeing because you said something; I have a good respect for your knowledge. But the V-G diagrams on Wiki, NASA, or almost any aerodynamic website where I look does not say what you said, true though your statements may be.
Here is just one example:View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5_P7VvOMu0
And I apprciate the offer to help. I'll probably take you up on that down the pike, via PM if that's OK with you. I am loathe to turn this into an aerodynamics forum, but would probably pursue it outside of the forum. What I'd really like is to come up with an easy-to-use aerodunamic spreadhseet for generally accurate calculations for these what-ifs and basic design typoe things. I already have several done and want to consolidate them into one sheet for quick reference.
I am fine with that.
Last time I offered to share some data with you I had the same problem I have now ... a 20Mb limit. So, if I / we come up with anything bigger, I say let's use smail mail and CD/DVDs like I do with my brother. It works but is a bit slower than PMs.
One of the books I was using is The Illustrated Guide to Aerodynamics by Skip Smith and I don;t need to take a picture of it. Others include Hoerner Fluid Dynamics - Lift and Drag.
Page what in Hoerner's Fluid Dynamic Drag? I couldn't find any reference to the V-n diagram - and didn't expect to.
Here's an AOPA website that explains their viewpoint, wrtten by aeronautical engineers, probably more current than you.:
Interesting swipe. So, you did notice that the very nice Navy tutorial below the AOPA link on applied aerodynamics and aeronautical engineering Pre-dates my Degree in Aero (1968), my Masters in Aero (1972) and my last work experience in 1984? Does that make H.H. Hurt, Jr. less capable to produce this textbook in 1965 when it was published? As to the below AOPA discussion of V-n, do you suppose that it borders on advanced state of the art theory?
Operating Within the Envelope - Part 1 The Airplane's V-g Diagram - Flight Training
Good discussion until he poses Flutter as The primary illustrated condition that sets the Velocity/Q load threshold - see your USN tutorial below to help you understand the multitude of expected issues when exceeding V-ne
Here is another pdf from the US Navy.: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/00-80t-80.pdf
This is a far better resource, Greg. Note that beginning on page 360, the Navy Textbook goes deeply into the various issues of exceeding the dynamic pressure limits characterized by the 'do not exceed velocity' - they may even refresh your understanding of why altitude and density are important factors to contrast the 'velocity discussion'
See page 337. The Navy has more aeronautial engineers and more flight time than you and your father put togther with all his friends and cohorts. They don't even mention too much lift or dynamic pressure at Vne, though it is a factor. I do see flutter and gust load in there, though, as I expected.
Let me help you out and direct your attention to the section beginning on page 360. You will see a series of discussions ranging from aileron reversal to Divergence to Buffet to Flutter 'at high dynamic pressure including issues with compressibility - all of which, when understood in flight test, define the velocity-Q Load limit.
EDIT NOTE. IF FLUTTER encountered at or below a mission desired velocity limit, that limits the top speed/velocity to that below a point deemed necessary to accomplish a mission or operate within a desired envelope - the problem is addressed and FIXED so that the issue may or may not arise again at a velocity/Q threshold BEYOND V-ne. This is why Flutter is not THE major discussion within V-ne. You can easily fix flutter most of the time, but can't do much about compressibility, aero elastic torsion and aileron reversal, buffeting, stability and control divergence - without major redesign of wing and or wing/body interface.
I am not going to calculate something every time we interact in here, but some of your musings are less than in line with the US Navy who has the best-flying airplanes in the fighter world up to and including today.
Hi Pbehn,
The X7 probably had a beer-can grade steel frame and very probably needed a strong steering dampner and a stiff swingarm coupled with good swingarm bushings. I surmise the trail may have been a bit short.
If it increases, it can be and usually is fatal. It is NOT something you want to experience though I have in RC models (lost 2 and landed / repaired 4) and once in a real plane. I got a Cessna 150 to flutter accidentally when I looked down at a lake while banking in a descending turn and got a bit fast becasue I wasn't paying attention. Never did that again even when a topless babe was floating about. Too dangerous. I throttled back and pulled up very slightly and the flutter desisted.
Go do a stall in a Piper Tomahawk and look at the tail through the stall. You probably won't fly one again.