WW2: Why was the 9th Air Force given P51 ins6tead of giving them to the 8th Air Force in 1943? (3 Viewers)

[greatgonzo]

So down to earth iwould be a post war name given to these tactics? It was not like official doctrine ordered by HQ?

 

[Engineman]

The strafing attacks were both random and planned. When escort fighters broke escort (like at limit of range for a Penetration escort, one or more flights might drop to the deck and attack a sighted airfield on the way home.

A pair of fighters chasing a 109 might spot an airfield and shoot it up. Notable was a planned strafing attack b VIII FC on April 5, 1944. The 4th FG destroyed 45 on airfields around Berlin and the 355th destroyed 46 around Munich, including 6 air.

The fighter groups were encouraged to strafe targets of opportunity on the way home after escort.

Hi,
I had the understanding that a large part of the Bomber's problems was being intercepted by the Luftwaffe, particularly on the way back from the target, so it would seem that this was not such a big factor when escort fighters could be released from escort duty to TOO free-range straffe? Or, was it the case that following waves of escorts joined-up and freed the first wave of escorts if; the join-up was successful, the situation was not bad and the relieved escorts were not Bingo on fuel or ammo?
I doubt that the bombers were going to be happy to see all/any of the escorts leave them high and dry over Germany!

Eng

 

[drgondog]

Hi,
I had the understanding that a large part of the Bomber's problems was being intercepted by the Luftwaffe, particularly on the way back from the target, so it would seem that this was not such a big factor when escort fighters could be released from escort duty to TOO free-range straffe? Or, was it the case that following waves of escorts joined-up and freed the first wave of escorts if; the join-up was successful, the situation was not bad and the relieved escorts were not Bingo on fuel or ammo?
I doubt that the bombers were going to be happy to see all/any of the escorts leave them high and dry over Germany!

Eng

You have to view escort as P-47C/D only through October 1943 during which only limited escort was provided during Penetration so say Bremen, and Withdrawal support from say Bremen to the Belgium/Netherlands coast. For targets deeper than 300 miles, the bombers were on their own and the fighters had already escorted to limit of endurance - no extra fuel to drop down on the deck and free hunt. Besides orders were 'intercept and return' prohibiting chase.

When the P-38 came target support to more distant targets, then the P-51B joined - but the doctrine was still 'intercept and return' until Doolittle extended the escort role officially to seek and destroy LW in the 'air and on the ground', leading to intercept and chase and shoot up everything on the way home.

The relay system was incomplete absent range in the P-47C/D, but extended to continuous escort through target and return to R/V with Withdrawal Support when P-48/P-51 available in more numbers February/March 1944.

 

[Engineman]

You have to view escort as P-47C/D only through October 1943 during which only limited escort was provided during Penetration so say Bremen, and Withdrawal support from say Bremen to the Belgium/Netherlands coast. For targets deeper than 300 miles, the bombers were on their own and the fighters had already escorted to limit of endurance - no extra fuel to drop down on the deck and free hunt. Besides orders were 'intercept and return' prohibiting chase.

When the P-38 came target support to more distant targets, then the P-51B joined - but the doctrine was still 'intercept and return' until Doolittle extended the escort role officially to seek and destroy LW in the 'air and on the ground', leading to intercept and chase and shoot up everything on the way home.

The relay system was incomplete absent range in the P-47C/D, but extended to continuous escort through target and return to R/V with Withdrawal Support when P-48/P-51 available in more numbers February/March 1944.

Thanks, Yes I appreciate that raids were often unescorted at long range in the early days, witness some of the bad losses on long raids. That really got the fur-flying.
I guess that the later situation where fighters were returning with fuel and ammo generated the realisation that they could do more against the Luftwaffe and the enemy. Maybe Doolittle was lucky that the German fighter force didn't manage a nasty engagement with the bombers after fighters had gone-off straffing.
Overall, they reached the stage where the escort fighters far outweighed the strength of the Luftwaffe to make effective attacks on the bombers.

Cheers

Eng

 

[drgondog]

Thanks, Yes I appreciate that raids were often unescorted at long range in the early days, witness some of the bad losses on long raids. That really got the fur-flying.
I guess that the later situation where fighters were returning with fuel and ammo generated the realisation that they could do more against the Luftwaffe and the enemy. Maybe Doolittle was lucky that the German fighter force didn't manage a nasty engagement with the bombers after fighters had gone-off straffing.
Overall, they reached the stage where the escort fighters far outweighed the strength of the Luftwaffe to make effective attacks on the bombers.

Cheers

Eng

There were consequences when the LW managed a huge win, absent US escort.

Additionally, there is confusion regarding US fighter tactics when chasing LW. Far more frequent was a squadron commander dispatching a flight or section to intercept a larger force of LW fighters. Even during rare circumstances when a bomber force was completely absent fighter protection (missed assignment, late R/V, bomber force way off course with fighters at R/V) the bomber to fighter escort Gp/Squadron COs radio communication was excellent and a call for help often resulted in new US fighter arrivals within a minute or two to intercept before catastrophic casualties occurred.

Missions on April 11, April 24, May 12, June 20, July 7 and September 27 are examples of the latter where disconnects between the bombers and escort were remedied quickly -