WW2 with no Spitfire - Hurricane being primary interceptor

[DonL]

It's just about impossible to consider an ATL if things change too much, but your points 1-3 would make things equally tough for the RAF in the OTL. Remember that in the ATL I postulate, that Hurricane production is increased with 3 additional Hurricanes for every 2 Spitfires produced in the OTL. This gives RAF FC 700 additional fighters by August 1940 and greater production of Hurricanes with the Merlin XII. Luftwaffe losses are very likely going to much higher than in the OTL probably leading to Goring's close escort order even sooner.

I don't think that overall RAF FC losses will be much different during the BofB, but Luftwaffe losses will be much higher because far more fighters will be intercepting each raid and the kill rate per firing pass should remain constant. The RAF only has to scale back it's intruder missions into France in 1941 to dramatically lower their pilot losses and at the same time Malta and N.Africa will have hundreds more HH fighters than in the OTL, probably leading to an Italian collapse in North Africa before the Germans can intervene.

I think the HHII can remain competitive with the 109E but beyond that the HH would probably require a new wing and/or the Griffon engine to stay competitive, however, other aircraft are still being built and even if the Spitfire was not ordered in 1936, it is possible that Supermarine would continue to develop the concept with an improved model (Spitfire III) coming into limited production in 1941. I fully acknowledge that the Hurricane design would run out of growth potential in 1942 without a new wing and/or volume production of Griffon.

You are aware that the FW 187 (with the same engines as the Bf 110 from BoB)could reach 605km/h with 30min combat power (normal cooling no experimental cooling) with the range for London with 30minutes combat time over London?
Also that a 300 liter drop tank had given the Bf 109E 30minutes more combat time over south England?
The germnas fielded 1100 fighters for BoB and at this what if scenario both german fighters would outclass the Hurricane from speed, diving and combat time.
Also you need trained pilots for the more available Hurricanes, to my sources the RAF had problems with enough trained pilots at the beginning of the BoB.

Sorry but I realy think that a Bf 109E7 and a FW 187 would have much less losses in reality (BoB as happened) with Hurricane and Spitfire, with much more losses for the RAF. With only the Hurricane also if there would be perhaps 125-150 fighters more for the RAF the losses for the RAF would be back-breaking.

Every good book that I have read about BoB had analysed for the german side:
1. The stupid close cover order from Goering
2. The shortcomings of the Bf 109E4 through it's limited range and combat time
3. The shortcommings of the Bf 110

All this shortcommings would be eliminated in this what if, with a very clear performance advantage for the german fighters against the Hurricane.

Where is the logic that the LW would have higher losses, even if the RAF could have fielded ~ 150 more fighters, if this fighter is realy outclassed and the german fighters had the combat time to play their advantages?

 

[RCAFson]

Not buying it: the Hurricane IV with 1,620 hp could make 330 mph. Figuring that the Merlin 61 with 4 bladed prop would result in similar weight gains to the extra armour etc fitted to the Mk IV over the Mk II, claiming an extra 60 mph for 1,400hp? Don't think so.

330mph at what altitude?

The Hurricane IV was the RAF's answer to the IL-2 and was very heavily armoured and weighed about 600 lb more than an equivalent II series. Mason gives the weight for the IId trop as 7850lb versus 8462 lb for the IVd trop. The IV was highly optimized for low level ground attack.
Mason (The Hawker Hurricane):

The provision of universal "low attack" wings and attachment points, together with additional armour protection, resulted in greater weights and therefore reduced performance.

 

[Aozora]

330mph at what altitude?

The Hurricane IV was the RAF's answer to the IL-2 and was very heavily armoured and weighed about 600 lb more than an equivalent II series. Mason gives the weight for the IId trop as 7850lb versus 8462 lb for the IVd trop. The IV was highly optimized for low level ground attack.
Mason (The Hawker Hurricane):

Rated altitude Merlin 27 = 9,250 ft (Mason quotes top speed at rated altitude)

As I pointed out Hurricane Merlin 60 series?

Figuring that the Merlin 61 with 4 bladed prop would result in similar weight gains to the extra armour etc fitted to the Mk IV over the Mk II...

The Spitfire IX weighed about 1,000 lbs more than a VB - 7,400 lbs loaded vs 6,440 lbs.

Assuming that Hawker manage to design a new radiator system for the Hurricane AND assuming the performance increase is similar to that of the Spitfire IX series over the Spitfire V, a Merlin 60 series Hurricane would be lucky to achieve c. 360-370 mph. Bottom line - why bother?

 

[Milosh]

The germnas fielded 1100 fighters for BoB

Only if the Bf110 is included and that is for 'on hand'.

Aug 10 1940

26 Jagdgruppen 976 (853 - serviceable)
9 Zerstrergruppen 244 (189 - serviceable)

Sept 7 1940

27 Jagdgruppen 831 (658 - serviceable)
8 Zerstörergruppen 206 (112 - serviceable)

1. The stupid close cover order from Goering

This happened in early Sept when the battle was already lost.

 

[DonL]

Only if the Bf110 is included and that is for 'on hand'.

Aug 10 1940

26 Jagdgruppen 976 (853 - serviceable)
9 Zerstrergruppen 244 (189 - serviceable)

Sept 7 1940

27 Jagdgruppen 831 (658 - serviceable)
8 Zerstörergruppen 206 (112 - serviceable)



This happened in early Sept when the battle was already lost.

Luftwaffe: Luftflotten 2, 3 und 5 (20. Juli 1940)
Bomber 1576, davon 316 einmotorige Ju 87
einmotorige Jäger 809 Bf 109 E
zweimotorige Jäger 300 Bf 110

The FW 187 would very clearly a absolute equal fighter or better the the Bf 109E

To my sources the order came around 20 August.

And as I said with a Bf 109E7 and the FW 187 the losses of the LW would be much less, to much more losses of the RAF.

This is a what if scenario.

 

[RCAFson]

Rated altitude Merlin 27 = 9,250 ft (Mason quotes top speed at rated altitude)

As I pointed out Hurricane Merlin 60 series? The Spitfire IX weighed about 1,000 lbs more than a VB - 7,400 lbs loaded vs 6,440 lbs.

Assuming that Hawker manage to design a new radiator system for the Hurricane AND assuming the performance increase is similar to that of the Spitfire IX series over the Spitfire V, a Merlin 60 series Hurricane would be lucky to achieve c. 360-370 mph. Bottom line - why bother?

The IV made no attempt to clean up the airframe and added a lot more drag due to the "low attack" wing and it's multiple hard points. In any event a HH/IV/Merlin 27 was good for ~1600hp at ~10000ft while a HH with a Merlin 63 would have a FTH of ~24000ft and static output :
1,710hp @ 8,500'
1,520hp @ 21,000'

A "clean" HHII airframe would probably make ~350 mph at 10000ft and ~385 at 24000ft with a Merlin 63

The HHII/MXX already added about 300lb over the HHI/M3 so there would be less weight increase when adding the M63, also Mk IX weights are with a Rotol CS prop rather than the lighter DH CS props in the Mk V, but most HHII weights already quote for the Rotol. A HH fitted with a M63 would only be a few hundred lbs heavier than the MXX installation, and a few hundred lbs could be saved by using using the Vb armament (2 x 20mm , 4 x .303).

 

[RCAFson]

This is a what if scenario.

Wouldn't it bet better to discuss this idea in a separate thread?

 

[SPEKTRE76]

Wouldn't it bet better to discuss this idea in a separate thread?

Why? And I thinks it's fine



I think a bird that can have 12 guns would be pretty awesome. I wonder what a Griffon engined 4 x 20mm + 4 x 12.7mm guns would be like. It would need to have a bubble top canopy toward the end of the war though.

 

[wuzak]

The HHII/MXX already added about 300lb over the HHI/M3 so there would be less weight increase when adding the M63, also Mk IX weights are with a Rotol CS prop rather than the lighter DH CS props in the Mk V, but most HHII weights already quote for the Rotol.

Would that be because the Spitfire V had 3 bladed prop and the IX had a 4 bladed prop?

A HH fitted with a M63 would only be a few hundred lbs heavier than the MXX installation, and a few hundred lbs could be saved by using using the Vb armament (2 x 20mm , 4 x .303).

The Merlin 60 series were about 200-250lb heavier than the Merlin XX series.

To that you need to add extra engine cooling capacity (= more weight drag) and intercooler capacity (= more weight drag).

I wonder if anybody has weights for a IXc - and what performance that had.

The IV made no attempt to clean up the airframe and added a lot more drag due to the "low attack" wing and it's multiple hard points. In any event a HH/IV/Merlin 27 was good for ~1600hp at ~10000ft while a HH with a Merlin 63 would have a FTH of ~24000ft and static output :
1,710hp @ 8,500'
1,520hp @ 21,000'

A "clean" HHII airframe would probably make ~350 mph at 10000ft and ~385 at 24000ft with a Merlin 63

385mph would be less than could have been got with a Spitfire IIIc, I'm sure.

Certainly less than the low altitude XII.
Very much less than the HF.IX HF.VIII
Minimum difference is 20mph.

 

[wuzak]

Oh, and a cleaned up Hurricane airframe with new, thinner wing - may as weel build a new plane. Oh wait, that's what Hawker did (though they still persisted with the thick wing for a while).

 

[DonL]

Wouldn't it bet better to discuss this idea in a separate thread?

My intention was only to show you, that it is possible that things could change in reality (technical possible at the same timeline) with advantages for the enemy, which would get the RAF in very difficult conditions.
Also I'm weather convinced of your what if at BoB nor for the timeline 1941 till end 1942, when the FW 190A3 and the Bf 109F4 are in charge.
Your what if Hurricane would be very easy meat to my opinion, even with a Merlin 60.

 

[nuuumannn]

Your what if Hurricane would be very easy meat to my opinion, even with a Merlin 60

And I can't say I disagree. The problem with all this attempting to justify a 'better' Hurricane with projected figures from test reports engine stats etc is that on the front line at a squadron level, things would have been very different and the defficiencies of the design would have been all too apparent. Paper figues do not stand up to the rigours of frontline service as has been demonstrated and proved many times in reality. No amount of modifying the Hurri was going to produce the fighter you claim, RCAFson, none. All the Germans need do was produce a fighter with far better performance than the one your squadrons are operating and your theories are literally and figuratively shot down - as what happened when the Fw 190 entered service.

In August 1941, the Fw 190 - overheating engines aside was arguably the most advanced and best fighter in service in the world; it had electrically operated and cleverly advanced systems, it was a maintenance man's dream and it could out perform anything it encountered in the skies over Europe. The British reacted in kind - it created a mild panic as can be seen in the correspondence generated by the Air Minsitry and the RAF at the time - it's impact was enormous. The Hurricane, by contrast was considered obsolescent - not obsolete - look up the definition of the word - as a frontline fighter even by the end of 1940 and this was proven by the Air Ministry's reluctance to continue evolving the airframe beyond being used as a ground attack aircraft.

Let's look at it this way, if, say, the improved Hurricane was in frontline service in Aug/Sept 1941 or even earlier and it was being mauled by Bf 109Fs and then Fw 190s - as it would have been, you can bet your bottom dollar that if you went down to the guys flying the Hurri in combat with all your facts and figures on paper and stated "But... The Hurri should be able to do this! See... I have the paperwork to prove it...", you'd probably be shot and handed to the Germans for not taking better advice by more informed individuals than yourself. Even with the facts and figures you provide, you cannot demonstrate that the Hurricane would be better than starting afresh with an all-new design. History is against you, RCAFson.

 

[RCAFson]

And I can't say I disagree. The problem with all this attempting to justify a 'better' Hurricane with projected figures from test reports engine stats etc is that on the front line at a squadron level, things would have been very different and the defficiencies of the design would have been all too apparent. Paper figues do not stand up to the rigours of frontline service as has been demonstrated and proved many times in reality. No amount of modifying the Hurri was going to produce the fighter you claim, RCAFson, none. All the Germans need do was produce a fighter with far better performance than the one your squadrons are operating and your theories are literally and figuratively shot down - as what happened when the Fw 190 entered service.

In August 1941, the Fw 190 - overheating engines aside was arguably the most advanced and best fighter in service in the world; it had electrically operated and cleverly advanced systems, it was a maintenance man's dream and it could out perform anything it encountered in the skies over Europe. The British reacted in kind - it created a mild panic as can be seen in the correspondence generated by the Air Minsitry and the RAF at the time - it's impact was enormous. The Hurricane, by contrast was considered obsolescent - not obsolete - look up the definition of the word - as a frontline fighter even by the end of 1940 and this was proven by the Air Ministry's reluctance to continue evolving the airframe beyond being used as a ground attack aircraft.

Let's look at it this way, if, say, the improved Hurricane was in frontline service in Aug/Sept 1941 or even earlier and it was being mauled by Bf 109Fs and then Fw 190s - as it would have been, you can bet your bottom dollar that if you went down to the guys flying the Hurri in combat with all your facts and figures on paper and stated "But... The Hurri should be able to do this! See... I have the paperwork to prove it...", you'd probably be shot and handed to the Germans for not taking better advice by more informed individuals than yourself. Even with the facts and figures you provide, you cannot demonstrate that the Hurricane would be better than starting afresh with an all-new design. History is against you, RCAFson.

We have been discussing the consequences of an ATL where the RAF has more Hurricanes sooner, and how they might respond with changes to the Hurricane design to meet the evolving situation. It is a fact that the Spitfire came close to cancellation, and I started this thread to look at that possibility, tempered by greater production of the Hurricane.

I've stated repeatedly that the Hurricane would be in trouble by 1942 but you mistake a discussion that posits an ATL, where the Spitfire is not ordered in 1936 but instead the RAF decides to order more Hurricanes than historically (3 HH for 2 spit), with me trying to "prove" that the Hurricane can do this or that. I am not trying to argue that the Hurricane was better than the Spitfire, but that the Hurricane could have been better than it was. It is also a fact that the Hurricane had to carry the fight in the Malta and the MTO without the Spitfire, typically at a great numerical disadvantage until early/mid 1942.

Clearly Sydney Camm thought that a Griffon Hurricane had great potential and I showed his comparison with Griffon Spitfire earlier in the thread:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/av...primary-interceptor-36957-23.html#post1016389
Now I don't claim to be an aeronautical engineer but Camm and his team were. We have been discussing the consequences of an ATL where the RAF has more Hurricanes sooner, and how they might respond with changes to the Hurricane design to meet the evolving situation and I don't see this an a criticism of the Spitfire, implied or otherwise.

 

[RCAFson]

Would that be because the Spitfire V had 3 bladed prop and the IX had a 4 bladed prop?

No. The Rotol and the additional needed counterweights, was about 115 lb heavier than the DH unit, according to Price.

The Merlin 60 series were about 200-250lb heavier than the Merlin XX series.

To that you need to add extra engine cooling capacity (= more weight drag) and intercooler capacity (= more weight drag).

I wonder if anybody has weights for a IXc - and what performance that had.

True but the difference between a HHII and a HHII/M63 would be less than between the V and the IX.

385mph would be less than could have been got with a Spitfire IIIc, I'm sure.

Certainly less than the low altitude XII.
Very much less than the HF.IX HF.VIII
Minimum difference is 20mph.

I can only look at the data available and make comparisons on that basis. The graph of the HHI with boost levels from 6.25 to 12lbs shows a steady increase in speed with increases in boost (HP) with little discernible decline in speed increases with increased boost:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/hurricane-l1717-cal.jpg

and it implies that 16lb boost would result in another ~20mph and 18lb (IE more HP) better yet. The Typhoon had a very similar wing and it was impressively fast at low altitudes.

 

[DonL]

It is also a fact that the Hurricane had to carry the fight in the Malta and the MTO without the Spitfire and typically at a great numerical disadvantage until early/mid 1942.

Both the Hurricane and the P40 were the whole time 1941 till 1942 in numerical advantage at NA and suffered badly against only one JG (27) with Bf 109F-4.

Only at Malta the Hurricane was outnumbered and also suffered dramaticly.

 

[RCAFson]

Both the Hurricane and the P40 were the whole time 1941 till 1942 in numerical advantage at NA and suffered badly against only one JG (27) with Bf 109F-4.

Only at Malta the Hurricane was outnumbered and also suffered dramaticly.

So the only Axis fighters in the MTO were "one JG (27) with Bf 109F-4"?

 

[nuuumannn]

but that the Hurricane could have been better than it was.

The whole point of my argument; it couldn't and as I said, history proves you wrong when you state it could. There was no point, even if Camm thought so; this has also been demonstrated. Also, I don't mention the Spitfire once in my last post.

Only at Malta the Hurricane was outnumbered and also suffered dramatically

And the situation changed once the Spitfire appeared on the scene.

 

[wuzak]

We have been discussing the consequences of an ATL where the RAF has more Hurricanes sooner, and how they might respond with changes to the Hurricane design to meet the evolving situation. It is a fact that the Spitfire came close to cancellation, and I started this thread to look at that possibility, tempered by greater production of the Hurricane.

The Spitfire was only close to cancellation because of the time it took to put into production and the slow initial delivery.

As has been pointed out, if the Spitfire was cancelled they would not build more Hurricanes. They would look to something else - Whirlwind (also slow to get into production), Boulton Paul P.94 (IIRC - single seat Defiant). They may have looked more favourably on the Supermarine Type 324 design, and that may have won F.18/37 over the Tornado/Typhoon.

I've stated repeatedly that the Hurricane would be in trouble by 1942 but you mistake a discussion that posits an ATL, where the Spitfire is not ordered in 1936 but instead the RAF decides to order more Hurricanes than historically (3 HH for 2 spit)

I think that once the Spitfire prototype had flown it was clear to all that the Hurricane was not going to be sufficient in the long term. That the AM would consider not ordering the Spitfire at all is the product of delusional thinking!

Clearly Sydney Camm thought that a Griffon Hurricane had great potential and I showed his comparison with Griffon Spitfire earlier in the thread:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/av...primary-interceptor-36957-23.html#post1016389
Now I don't claim to be an aeronautical engineer but Camm and his team were.

As you pointed out in that post, that Hurricane would have needed a new wing to out perform a similarly powered Spitfire.

Also have to bear in mind that Camm's calculations at around that time bore no resemblance to fact. The Tornado/Typhoon were estimated to have top speeds of around 460-465mph, but could do barely over 400mph (with original power levels). So take his estimates on the Hurricane with a grain of salt.

Spitfire XII was basically a Spitfire V with a Griffon II. This produced a max speed of around 400mph. If the same was done with a Hurricane, expect quite a bit less - 360-380mph, depending how optimistic you are.

The definitive Griffon Spitfire with new wing appears in 1944/45. Delays due to production considerations make it so. When would a new Hurricane wing appear?

We have been discussing the consequences of an ATL where the RAF has more Hurricanes sooner, and how they might respond with changes to the Hurricane design to meet the evolving situation and I don't see this an a criticism of the Spitfire, implied or otherwise.

It isn't just a matter of more aircraft. You need more pilots too.

Where was the extra several hundred pilots coming from?

 

[DonL]

At NA was only one german JG! The JG 27 and only since September 1941 was the whole JG present (before only one group).
Also the JG 27 get the first Bf 109F-4 at September 1941, before the JG was fighting with the Bf 109 E7.

The axis fighter, JG 27 and the italian squadrons were constantly in numerical disadvantage at NA, this is proved from many books and primary sources.

 

[RCAFson]

The whole point of my argument; it couldn't and as I said, history proves you wrong when you state it could. There was no point, even if Camm thought so; this has also been demonstrated. Also, I don't mention the Spitfire once in my last post.

Really? So Camm's prediction of 425mph for the Griffon Spitfire was off by 100mph!!! Are you really trying to state that there was absolutely no possible combinations of engine/airframe mods could increase Hurricane performance? That's a very sweeping statement, and I doubt you can prove it.

And the situation changed once the Spitfire appeared on the scene.

Not all at once, and not until it arrived in large numbers.