WW2 with no Spitfire - Hurricane being primary interceptor

RCAFson · May 23, 2013

Aozora said:
Expecting a new wing to be designed for the Hurricane is wishful thinking indeed; by 1940 Camm wasn't bothering with major redesign of the Hurricane because he had to concentrate on the Typhoon. Face some facts and understand that the Hurricane was well past its use-by date as a fighter by 1942, and the illusion that the Hurricane could somehow compete with 190s and 109Fs Gs is a waste of time.

You seem to be under the illusion that I'm somehow arguing that the Hurricane was superior to the Spitfire/109/190 etc, etc when I've said no such thing. The facts are that a thin wing was contemplated for the Hurricane but this was not proceeded with (except as a laminar wing research aircraft) simply because the Spitfire was available; if it wasn't ( and that's the topic of the thread!!!) then a redesigned Hurricane wing would probably have gone ahead. The fact is that Hawker's new fighters were delayed because it had to concentrate on building freedom's saviour in 1940 - namely the Hawker Hurricane. Camm began the design of a laminar wing for the Tempest in March 1940 and a similar wing would have greatly improved Hurricane performance even with the available Merlin engines and it probably would have been gotten into production somewhat sooner than the Tempest since much of the airframe and cooling system could remain intact. A thinner wing Hurricane would have proved useful even with the Spitfire in production, for example, as a Sea Hurricane with improved performance while still retaining Hawker's rugged LG and airframe.

BTW over Malta, the Hurricane had a better record against the 109F than against the E.

I state the obvious because you seem to ignore the obvious when it suits. With such thinking it could also be claimed that the Fairey Battle could have been useful! Contrary to your opinion the Luftwaffe was still a factor and against ground targets the Hurricane IV proved to be vulnerable, partly because of all that armour, which was not heavy enough to provide much protection against 37mm Flak especially, and the weight of which made it just that much slower and easier to target. The only reason it was still in use in 2 TAF in 1943/44 was because of continuing problems with Typhoons.

But you said it yourself - "the Hurricane was used because of continuing problems with the Typhoons" so it was still useful... The Soviets used the IL-2, which had lower performance than the HH IV, less firepower, and a smaller bomb load so it seems the HH IV would have been viable in Europe after June 1944.

wuzak · May 23, 2013

RCAFson said:
The Soviets used the IL-2, which had lower performance than the HH IV, less firepower, and a smaller bomb load so it seems the HH IV would have been viable in Europe after June 1944.

But much more armour.

wuzak · May 23, 2013

RCAFson said:
You seem to be under the illusion that I'm somehow arguing that the Hurricane was superior to the Spitfire/109/190 etc, etc when I've said no such thing. The facts are that a thin wing was contemplated for the Hurricane but this was not proceeded with (except as a laminar wing research aircraft) simply because the Spitfire was available; if it wasn't ( and that's the topic of the thread!!!) then a redesigned Hurricane wing would probably have gone ahead.

What prompted Camm to change his mind about the thick wing? Perhaps the disparity in performance between the Hurricane and Spitfire using the same engine?

If there are no Spitfires, when does Camm re-evaluate his design? 1938? Perhaps when the Hurricane meets the Bf 109 in combat in 1940?

RCAFson · May 23, 2013

wuzak said:
But much more armour.

Both aircraft were heavily armoured.

wuzak · May 23, 2013

RCAFson said:
A thinner wing Hurricane would have proved useful even with the Spitfire in production, for example, as a Sea Hurricane with improved performance while still retaining Hawker's rugged LG and airframe.

Perhaps the Seafire could have been developed earlier, with help from Fairey.

RCAFson · May 23, 2013

wuzak said:
What prompted Camm to change his mind about the thick wing? Perhaps the disparity in performance between the Hurricane and Spitfire using the same engine?

If there are no Spitfires, when does Camm re-evaluate his design? 1938? Perhaps when the Hurricane meets the Bf 109 in combat in 1940?

As has been stated earlier Camm was given misleading high speed/high altitude drag numbers for the Hurricane wing design. The fact that he was designing a thin wing by March 1940 for the Tempest indicates that the problem was identified fairly early (~1939), but again the Hurricane's performance was acceptable for 1939-mid 1941 and by 1941 it was hoped that the massive investment in Spitfire production would begin to pay off, and lesson the need for a high performance, high altitude HH. If the Tempest had been put on hold and that design team tasked with designing a new wing for the Hurricane, it seems fairly probable that they would have had the job done PDQ, with a modded aircraft in production by late 1941/early 42.

RCAFson · May 23, 2013

wuzak said:
Perhaps the Seafire could have been developed earlier, with help from Fairey.

The basic Spitfire airframe simply wasn't well suited for carrier operations. The Hurricane had a better view over the nose, lower stall speeds and a much more rugged airframe and LG. The real pity is that the Admiralty didn't order the Sea Hurricane earlier.

wuzak · May 23, 2013

RCAFson said:
As has been stated earlier Camm was given misleading high speed/high altitude drag numbers for the Hurricane wing design. The fact that he was designing a thin wing by March 1940 for the Tempest indicates that the problem was identified fairly early (~1939), but again the Hurricane's performance was acceptable for 1939-mid 1941 and by 1941 it was hoped that the massive investment in Spitfire production would begin to pay off, and lesson the need for a high performance, high altitude HH. If the Tempest had been put on hold and that design team tasked with designing a new wing for the Hurricane, it seems fairly probable that they would have had the job done PDQ, with a modded aircraft in production by late 1941/early 42.

How would he know if he didn't have the direct comparison with the Spitfire?

It may have not met his performance expectations, but that may have still been enough for the RAF.

RCAFson · May 23, 2013

wuzak said:
How would he know if he didn't have the direct comparison with the Spitfire?

It may have not met his performance expectations, but that may have still been enough for the RAF.

Lots of other high speed aircraft were flying in the UK and elsewhere from 1936-39 including Hawker's own Tornado which first flew in Oct 1939, however the problems with thick wing compressability were not well understood at that time so it wasn't until a thick wing aircraft flew with sufficient power that the problem could be studied firsthand. It is possible that if the Hurricane was trialled with very high output Merlins as per the "Speed Spitfire" that the problem would have been found sooner and a new wing design initiated earlier.

Juha · May 24, 2013

RCAFson said:
Both aircraft were heavily armoured.

Il-2 had c. 2000lb of armour and still could be bought down by 20mm AA fire and how much armour Hurri Mk IV had?

Juha

RCAFson · May 24, 2013

Juha said:
Il-2 had c. 2000lb of armour and still could be bought down by 20mm AA fire and how much armour Hurri Mk IV had?

Juha

So why did they bother with the armour? Obviously it conferred benefits in terms of aircraft and crew survival.

The Mk IVD weighed 600lbs more than the IID, and most of the extra weight was due to added armour (over and above that carried on the IID). The engine, radiator, oil cooler and cockpit were all armoured and total armour weight was ~600lb.

Aozora · May 24, 2013

RCAFson said:
You seem to be under the illusion that I'm somehow arguing that the Hurricane was superior to the Spitfire/109/190 etc, etc when I've said no such thing.

Yeah, right, I haven't said any of that - your illusion is that the Hurricane would magically become a 380-390 mph fighter when in, its fastest form it could barely break 340 mph. Nothing has been mentioned about improving the rate of climb or rate of dive (380 mph IAS, lamentable), nor have you explained how Hawker would overcome the drag of being forced to add extra radiator/intercooler radiator area - fact is a Hurricane, even with a Merlin 60 series engine, would have been a serious under-performer by 1942 standards.

RCAFson said:
The facts are that a thin wing was contemplated for the Hurricane but this was not proceeded with (except as a laminar wing research aircraft) simply because the Spitfire was available; if it wasn't ( and that's the topic of the thread!!!) then a redesigned Hurricane wing would probably have gone ahead.

Contemplated, in 1940? When the Tempest wing was designed Camm was forced to relocate some of the fuel tanks to an extra bay in the forward fuselage of the Typhoon, and design a new undercarriage - what you are talking about for the Hurricane would have been a major design exercise, not simply a matter of slapping a new wing on an old fuselage. And how long would this have taken to get into production?

RCAFson said:
The fact is that Hawker's new fighters were delayed because it had to concentrate on building freedom's saviour in 1940 - namely the Hawker Hurricane.

Correction: One of "freedom's saviour(s)". The Spitfire did exist and did its fair share of the work.

RCAFson said:
Camm began the design of a laminar wing for the Tempest in March 1940 and a similar wing would have greatly improved Hurricane performance even with the available Merlin engines and it probably would have been gotten into production somewhat sooner than the Tempest since much of the airframe and cooling system could remain intact. A thinner wing Hurricane would have proved useful even with the Spitfire in production, for example, as a Sea Hurricane with improved performance while still retaining Hawker's rugged LG and airframe.

Camm contemplated a thin wing for the Typhoon II in March 1940, but did not begin design work until September '41. The Laminar flow wing project was a post-war design mule for Armstrong Whitworth; hardly applicable.

RCAFson said:
BTW over Malta, the Hurricane had a better record against the 109F than against the E.

Sez who?? Evidence, facts and figures please. Oh, hang on, the Hurricane didn't shoot down a single 109E, so even if it damaged or shot down an F it had a better record...

RCAFson said:
But you said it yourself - "the Hurricane was used because of continuing problems with the Typhoons" so it was still useful... The Soviets used the IL-2, which had lower performance than the HH IV, less firepower, and a smaller bomb load so it seems the HH IV would have been viable in Europe after June 1944.

It was used, but was not that useful, which was why it was dropped asap.

OldSkeptic · May 24, 2013

Aozora, thanks for injecting some sanity into this thread, I tried earlier and failed.

You could put rocket engine into a Hurricane and it wouldn't get more than 350mph.

The reason, if anyone ever studied the design evolution, was the history of the design. When the requirements came out, Hawker took a bi-plane Fury and made it into a mono wing with a Merlin.
The first ones had fabric wings, with basically the same wings and fuselage as the Fury.
The first wings were facrcx covered (hence those Hurricanes barely made 300mph).
Pressure from MAP made Hawker change that to metal wings (and the speed went to 330mph, on a good day).

When they started designing the Typhoon, they basically went for a variant of the original Hurricane wing and, lacking Supermarine's aerodynamic expertise made a fatal flaw in the tail design.
Part of that was Camm's personality, he was a total autocrat and ran Hawker like a personal fiefdom. You disagree with him and you were out the door so fast.
Tell him about thin wings at that time... gone.

Fortunately he was very smart and could overcome his personality weaknesses, so therefore (finally some would say) accepted ideas that he originally shot down in flames (and fired anyone who proposed them).
Hence the superb Tempest and Fury and later jets.

Though he did try a lot, he really had this personal hatred for the Spitfire.
At one time he proposed a Griffon engined Hurricane which 'would do 430mph'.
MAP totally ignored him (and probably laughed a lot in private).

Mitchell was much more a leader and team manager, he, though he was personally brilliant, managed an excellent team and got the best out of them (lots of similarities with him and Kurt Tank).
And he was totally pragmatic, from the information they had they knew what was going on with the 109 and needed to beat that, so they did. With, arguably, one of the finest aerodynamic designs of all time.

* Read Stanley Hookers comments about Hurricanes claimed speeds vs actual.

Aozora · May 24, 2013

wuzak said:
What prompted Camm to change his mind about the thick wing? Perhaps the disparity in performance between the Hurricane and Spitfire using the same engine?

If there are no Spitfires, when does Camm re-evaluate his design? 1938? Perhaps when the Hurricane meets the Bf 109 in combat in 1940?

Camm didn't realise that the thick wings hindered performance until the Tornado and Typhoon started flying and had been flight tested; at dive speeds approaching 500 mph there was a sudden drag rise followed by buffeting and trim changes. The Hurricane had a limiting dive speed of 380 mph IAS (cf Spitfire 450-480 mph IAS), so it didn't exhibit the same problems. Camm contemplated a thin wing for the Typhoon, starting in March 1940, but didn't start design work until September 1941 - a thin-wing for the Hurricane was probably contemplated/mooted at about the same time.

RCAFson said:
If the Tempest had been put on hold and that design team tasked with designing a new wing for the Hurricane, it seems fairly probable that they would have had the job done PDQ, with a modded aircraft in production by late 1941/early 42.

See comments above: Camm did not even start design of the thin wing Typhoon until September '41. As I have mentioned, designing a thin wing Hurricane would have been a major design exercise, not simply a matter of slapping a new wing on an old fuselage design. To put the Tempest on hold would have compounded Fighter Command's by then dire situation...

This is also assuming that the Air Ministry would have sat on its hands and waited for a new Hurricane, rather than issuing new specifications in the interim. The specification for a 400 mph fighter (which resulted in the Typhoon) was issued in 1938 - the AM was thinking ahead to high performance fighters and was not interested in developing the Hurricane further than it was because they recognised its limitations.

wuzak · May 24, 2013

Aozora said:
Camm didn't realise that the thick wings hindered performance until the Tornado and Typhoon started flying and had been flight tested; at dive speeds approaching 500 mph there was a sudden drag rise followed by buffeting and trim changes. The Hurricane had a limiting dive speed of 380 mph IAS (cf Spitfire 450-480 mph IAS), so it didn't exhibit the same problems. Camm contemplated a thin wing for the Typhoon, starting in March 1940, but didn't start design work until September 1941 - a thin-wing for the Hurricane was probably contemplated/mooted at about the same time.

So, as I expected. Camm didn't have an epiphany - he had to have it proved to him.

RCAFson · May 24, 2013

Aozora said:
Camm didn't realise that the thick wings hindered performance until the Tornado and Typhoon started flying and had been flight tested; at dive speeds approaching 500 mph there was a sudden drag rise followed by buffeting and trim changes. The Hurricane had a limiting dive speed of 380 mph IAS (cf Spitfire 450-480 mph IAS), so it didn't exhibit the same problems. Camm contemplated a thin wing for the Typhoon, starting in March 1940, but didn't start design work until September 1941 - a thin-wing for the Hurricane was probably contemplated/mooted at about the same time.

Gee whiz, isn't 380mph IAS at 20,000ft = 532mph TAS? Do you really think this is a limiting factor in exploring compressability? It wasn't the Hurricanes Vne that was a problem, in terms of exploring high speed drag but it's maximum speed in level flight.

See comments above: Camm did not even start design of the thin wing Typhoon until September '41. As I have mentioned, designing a thin wing Hurricane would have been a major design exercise, not simply a matter of slapping a new wing on an old fuselage design. To put the Tempest on hold would have compounded Fighter Command's by then dire situation...

This is also assuming that the Air Ministry would have sat on its hands and waited for a new Hurricane, rather than issuing new specifications in the interim. The specification for a 400 mph fighter (which resulted in the Typhoon) was issued in 1938 - the AM was thinking ahead to high performance fighters and was not interested in developing the Hurricane further than it was because they recognised its limitations.

It wasn't until 1941 that go-ahead was given to build a thin wing prototype:

As early as March 1940, Sydney Camm's design office was already deeply involved in designing an improved version of the Typhoon. Hawker's design team concentrated on redesigning and developing a completely new elliptical wing of narrower thickness; the Typhoon's thickness/chord ratio was more than 18 percents and it was planned that this had to go down to around 14 percents reaching around 10 percent at the wingtip.
Investigations into this wing design moved at a slow pace as the highest priority went into the production and further development of the Hawker Hurricane, whereby even Typhoon production was slowed down. It was only in March 1941 that Hawker received the go ahead' for the new wing installation work to begin, following discussions between Sydney Camm and Ministry of Aircraft Production (MAP) officials. The project started life as the Typhoon II (R1012).
Caruana, Hawker Tempest, p.4

RCAFson · May 24, 2013

Aozora said:
Yeah, right, I haven't said any of that - your illusion is that the Hurricane would magically become a 380-390 mph fighter when in, its fastest form it could barely break 340 mph. Nothing has been mentioned about improving the rate of climb or rate of dive (380 mph IAS, lamentable), nor have you explained how Hawker would overcome the drag of being forced to add extra radiator/intercooler radiator area - fact is a Hurricane, even with a Merlin 60 series engine, would have been a serious under-performer by 1942 standards.

The Mk II IAS is 390mph according to the Pilot's Notes. You keep trying to pretend that somehow this was a limiting factor in it's speed. Just to set the record straight, 390IAS = 624mph TAS at 30,000ft, 546mph at 20,000ft and 469mph at 10,000ft. NO way, no how was a Vne of 390IAS a limiting factor for the Hurricane.

Camm did design studies for a 425mph Griffon Hurricane so he must have had a solution for cooling in mind, but in any event we don't know that the Hurricane's cooling system couldn't handle the extra power, do we? The Mk IV could handle 1620hp as is, while the Mk V did have cooling problems with a 1700hp overboosted Merlin 32 (while achieving 326 mph at ~1000ft with a full trop filter) with full ground attack armour and 2 x 40mm cannon under the wings, so the balance of probabilities is that the cooling system could handle a Merlin 60 series.

Contemplated, in 1940? When the Tempest wing was designed Camm was forced to relocate some of the fuel tanks to an extra bay in the forward fuselage of the Typhoon, and design a new undercarriage - what you are talking about for the Hurricane would have been a major design exercise, not simply a matter of slapping a new wing on an old fuselage. And how long would this have taken to get into production?

Less time than for a whole new design.

Camm contemplated a thin wing for the Typhoon II in March 1940, but did not begin design work until September '41. The Laminar flow wing project was a post-war design mule for Armstrong Whitworth; hardly applicable.

see previous post

Sez who?? Evidence, facts and figures please. Oh, hang on, the Hurricane didn't shoot down a single 109E, so even if it damaged or shot down an F it had a better record...

A quote from Nikademus in an ealier thread:

Probably worth adding to further support the necessity and impact of the Spits is that the last Hurricane combats continued to go heavily in favor of the 109 drivers though overall the Hurr's continued to add valuable bomber #'s to the RAF tally.

44 shot down in return for 16 109's in 42. But Hurricanes also nabbed

4 x 110
5 x Ju-87
27 x Ju-88

IIRC, the 109s were mostly F models and the Hurricanes were all Mk IIs by that point as well, IIRC.

FLYBOYJ · May 24, 2013

Gentlemen, for the record, you cannot accurately calculate TAS without knowing density altitude and air temperature. You can skate by the long calculation by calculating for every 1000 feet increase in the altitude, multiply by 0.02% for the TAS, this also does not consider compressibility.

Or use one of these (check out the cool accent)....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LT5v0C1DxE

Juha · May 24, 2013

RCAFson said:
So why did they bother with the armour? Obviously it conferred benefits in terms of aircraft and crew survival.

The Mk IVD weighed 600lbs more than the IID, and most of the extra weight was due to added armour (over and above that carried on the IID). The engine, radiator, oil cooler and cockpit were all armoured and total armour weight was ~600lb.

According to Mason's Hawker Hurricane A/c Since 1920 (1961) p. 252 Hurri Mk IV featured 350lb more armour than Mk II. If much better armoured Il-2 was still vulnerable to 20mm AAA fire, surely Hurri Mk IV was even more vulnerable. And experience proved that, Mk IVs were used in ETO late 43 early 44 but proved to be too vulnerable and were replaced by Typhoons asap.

Juha

Aozora · May 24, 2013

RCAFson said:
The Mk II IAS is 390mph according to the Pilot's Notes. You keep trying to pretend that somehow this was a limiting factor in it's speed. Just to set the record straight, 390IAS = 624mph TAS at 30,000ft, 546mph at 20,000ft and 469mph at 10,000ft. NO way, no how was a Vne of 390IAS a limiting factor for the Hurricane.

????You're joking, right?? A dive speed of 390 mph IAS WAS SERIOUSLY LIMITED for combat! The Spitfire was slated for 450 - 480 mph IAS; various 109 models 750 km/h or 466 mph; can't find the dive speeds for Fw 190A, but it could outdive the Spitfire V with ease. Climbing speed was just as important and once again the Hurricane II lagged way behind.

RCAFson said:
Camm did design studies for a 425mph Griffon Hurricane so he must have had a solution for cooling in mind,

Design studies and we have no idea of the modifications required to boost a Hurricane's speed to 425mph. Presumably he realised it would be just far too much of a redesign and might as well start from scratch, which is why he went on to design the Fury/Sea Fury family.

RCAFson said:
...but in any event we don't know that the Hurricane's cooling system couldn't handle the extra power, do we? The Mk IV could handle 1620hp as is, while the Mk V did have cooling problems with a 1700hp overboosted Merlin 32 (while achieving 326 mph at ~1000ft with a full trop filter) with full ground attack armour and 2 x 40mm cannon under the wings, so the balance of probabilities is that the cooling system could handle a Merlin 60 series.

Not without adding an intercooler radiator, thus forcing a major redesign of the cooling system.

RCAFson said:
Less time than for a whole new design.

For sure, but why suspend development of a far better fighter in the hope of maybe improving the Hurricane enough to make it into a fighter with Spitfire V like performance?

Also, please explain how the fabric covering of the rear fuselage, fin, rudder and horizontal control surfaces would have coped at 400 mph + horizontal flight.

RCAFson said:
A quote from Nikademus in an ealier thread:

IIRC, the 109s were mostly F models and the Hurricanes were all Mk IIs by that point as well, IIRC.

Oh wow 44 Hurricanes for 16 109s - mostly Fs, but doesn't how many...no source given.

WW2 with no Spitfire - Hurricane being primary interceptor

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