wuzak
Captain
But will there be sufficient pilots?
The Spit could outclimb the Hurricane comfortably.
The Spit could also have been cleaned up some.
More Spitfires would have improved the position even more.
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
The point is that there would be a LOT more Hurricanes built, for the same effort and cost meaning that the Commonwealth (and Red AF via Commonwealth aid) have abundant fighters available for the critical battles that were fought in the Med in 1941. Malta will have adundant fighters, as will Crete when both are placed under siege, and there will be more for Singapore and maybe even some for Oz...
The Hurricane could always out turn the Spitfire because of it's lower wing loading, roll rates are very similar, with the Spit only having a slight edge. Climb rates aren't that different either as the Hurricane has more lift due to the lower wing loading but this is hard to compare because of the often different armament and armour loadings. The Spitfire has the edge in dive but a cleaned up Hurricane would improve on the historical Hurricane.
I'm not arguing that the Hurricane is a better fighter, but more capable Hurricanes, sooner would have improved the Commonwealth's strategic position in 1941.
gives the top speed of a Spitfire Vb as 371mph @ 20,100ft without snowguard (as with the Hurricance above) and 365mph @ 18,800ft with the snow guard fitted. Bot these are at +9psi boost (as with the Hurricane).
Note that while the Hurricane tested had 12 x 0.303"s the Spitfire had 2 x 20mm and 4 x 0.303"s. I'll leave it to the gun guys to say which is a heavier install, but the 2 x 20mm cannon is far draggier than the completely enclosed 0.303"guns.
Note also that the Spitfire takes about 2 minutes less to get to 20,000ft than the Hurricane II.
Did the Spitfire have these drag reducing things at that time?
So, a Hurricane protoype in 1940 was about as fast as the prototype Spitfire from around 3 years earlier, using 30-40% more power?
Impressive....not.
The point is that there would be a LOT more Hurricanes built, for the same effort and cost meaning that the Commonwealth (and Red AF via Commonwealth aid) have abundant fighters available for the critical battles that were fought in the Med in 1941. Malta will have adundant fighters, as will Crete when both are placed under siege, and there will be more for Singapore and maybe even some for Oz...
But will there be sufficient pilots?
ore Spitfires would have improved the position even more.
The point is that a lot more of the original design of Hurricane might have been built. Problem is by 1941 it was obsolescent as a fighter. Malta, for example, did have abundant Hurricanes, which were slaughtered by a single staffel of 109E-7s (7.JG/26) during the spring and summer of 1941 (partly poor tactics, partly tropical filter, without which the servicability rates would have been drastically reduced anyway).
As for a modified Hurricane? All that effort and expense for what exactly? A well below par fighter in the European theatre in 1943?
Again, you fixate on performance when the issue is aircraft production.
The point is that a lot more of the original design of Hurricane might have been built. Problem is by 1941 it was obsolescent as a fighter. Malta, for example, did have abundant Hurricanes, which were slaughtered by a single staffel of 109E-7s (7.JG/26) during the spring and summer of 1941 (partly poor tactics, partly tropical filter, without which the servicability rates would have been drastically reduced anyway).
As for a modified Hurricane? All that effort and expense for what exactly? A well below par fighter in the European theatre in 1943?
There was lots of slack in the pilot training program, so more aircraft sooner = a larger training program with more pilot output.
The 109s were able use hit and run tactics precisely because the Hurricanes were so badly outnumbered by Axis fighters, plus the 109s were only 70 miles from their bases.
The 109s could use hit and run tactics because they were over 30 mph faster than the Hurricanes and could climb faster and higher and dive faster.
Ive looked at this briefly in the other thread you are enjoying so much at the moment (the Hellcat thread).
I wouldnt call it a slaughter. Havent looked at the whole time period, but i did look at November'40 to June'41. In that period Malta received 48 Hurricanes, and ended the period with either 16 or 19. About 23 were lost to non-combat related incidents. Losses to air combat in that period amounted might have been 6 or 9. Thats against the entire Axis inventory....italian and German. More than a single staffeln of 109s. The element of JG 26 committed to the battle was at times more than a single staffeln, but overall claimed 42 victories for no loss. However, Axis losses in that period amounted to neqarly 100 aircraft, likley therefore that the Hurricanes, as always were not targetting the 109sat all, they were going after the bombers.
That is hardly a slaughter. Thats intelligent use of limited resources
Most Darwin Spitfire losses were due to being bounced by a fighter with much poorer high altitude performance.
And shot down several Zeros after being bounced, something the Malta Hurricanes could not achieve. Had Hurricanes been based at Darwin the Zeros would have been even more successful in the bounce.
Where you got those figures from I have no idea, they are clearly inaccurate:
From Malta: The Hurricane Years 1940-41 (a day to day chronicle):
Between February 1941 and late May Hurricanes shot down in air-to-air combat by 7./JG26 = 27 with no losses to 7 Staffel. (pages 146 - 225) In one-on one fighter combat that is a slaughter.
The problem with this, is that there werent 27 to shoot down. Thats a bit of a problem with that account. There were a total of 50 Hurricanes delivered June 1940 through to the end of May 1941. 8 were delivered in June 1940, but these had been gradually lost or grounded as i understand it by action with the italians, before the entry of the Germans on the scene. There was a reinforcement of 12 Hurricanes provided in November, 12 flown off, but only 4 made it. There was another resupply before March, such that the available strength March and April was about 23 aircraft. Another 5 were lost in delivery. There was a major resupply by Ark Royal towards the end of April, andother one lost enroute. Hurricanes were lost on the ground or to noncombat related causes in March (that might be a doubleing up from the 5 lost and mentioned previously.
Putting that all together, 8 lost before the arrival of the Germans, 15 lost at sea, or on the ground, 16 (or 19) still serviceable at the beginning of June '41. That adds up to 39 not shot down by the German 109s. Sorry if that does not correlate to Shores, or anyone else, but they are semi official figures 9cant be official since many of the early war strength returns for the Malta defence command were destroyed in air raids. That means that my sources are aas good as yours.
Areas where I may be wrong....perhaps the italians did not shoot down all 8 of the June defenders, in which case you might assume up to 8 more. but most accounts admit to the loss of 8 Hurricanes to the end of December 1940. If those losses were in fact by Germans, then your victories for the 109s could be bumped up to 19. But the overall loss rates for the Huricanes remains fixed, iut just means more credit needs to be given to the 109s. Doesnt alter the overall losses suffereed by the Axis, doesnt alter the overall losses suffered by the hurricanes, and doesnt disprove that the claim the hurricanes were "slaughtered" is a total post war myth. I'll take 20-50 Hurricanes lost in exchange for 230 Axis aircraft any day and claim it a victory every time, especially when the defenders are outnumbered 17:1. .
And shot down several Zeros after being bounced, something the Malta Hurricanes could not achieve. Had Hurricanes been based at Darwin the Zeros would have been even more successful in the bounce.
Hurricanes were better gun platforms
and probably would have suffered less from cannon/gun jams
and from CS prop failures
Overall, I bet they would have suffered fewer losses and made more kills.
Mason, who by the way wrote the definitive history of the BofB
If there was no Spitfire, another manufacturer - possibly Boulton Paul with what became the P.94 single seat Defiant, would have produced a second fighter, as both Aozora and Wuzak have mentioned before. As for Hawker, things would not have gone any differently than the way it did in real life; effort would have been concentrated on the Typhoon and Tornado, not further developing the Hurricane. Here is a passage from British Secret projects Fighters and Bombers 1935 - 1950 by Tony Buttler;
"...Sydney Camm produced a series of all new designs, Typhoon, Tempest and Fury, which were, however, closely related since each new design showed important similarities to its predecessor. Camm's hand was also forced by the lack of development potential in the Hurricane but the first of these follow-on aeroplanes, the Typhoon, actually resulted from a tender design competition. Specification F.18/37, officially dated March 1938, called for a high-speed single-seat fighter to replace the Spitfire and Hurricane (for many years it was Air Staff practice to begin looking for a replacement almost immediately a new type entered service)."
More from the same book;
"Over 14,500 were eventually built and there were proposals to fit an example with the more powerful Rolls-Royce Griffon. A prototype was begun but never completed and on 27 February 1941 Roderic Hill, DGRD reported that "The Hurricane with Griffon is not considered worthwhile."
Camm would not have wasted any more energy developing the Hurricane airframe any more than what was actually carried out, Spitfire or no Spitfire.
Hurricane development was stopped because the Spitfire existed.
If it didn't exist, and the time and money that went into the Spitfire was used to build more Hurricanes, then there would also be more incentive to develop the Hurricane further.
even small increases in performance would have been worthwhile.