Glider
Captain
I suggest you read the rest of my thread that you copied the posting from, it clarifies this error on your part.
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I suggest you read the rest of my thread that you copied the posting from, it clarifies this error on your part.The British trained pilots in the U.S. and those that did I believe followed the same training progression as the Americans.
This matches what I have read, for a single engine army pilot in WWII it took nine months and about 200 hours total. Navy pilots got 600 hours training.Primary Pilot Training taught basic flight using two-seater training aircraft. This was usually done by Contract Schools (civilian pilot training schools) through the Civil Aeronautics Authority – War Training Service (CAA-WTS). Cadets got around 60 to 65 Flight Hours in Stearman, Ryan, or Fairchild Primary Trainers before going to Basic.[7]
Basic Pilot Training taught the cadets to fly in formation, fly by instruments or by aerial navigation, fly at night, and fly for long distances. Cadets got about 70 Flight Hours in BT-9 or BT-13 Basic Trainers before being promoted to Advanced.[8]
Advanced Pilot Training placed the graduates in two categories: single-engined and multi-engined. Single-engined pilots flew the AT-6 Advanced Trainer. Multi-engined pilots learned to fly the AT-9, AT-10 or AT-17 Advanced Trainers[9]. Cadets were supposed to get a total of about 75 to 80 Flight Hours before graduating and getting their Pilot's Wings.[10]
Transition Training Single-engined pilots transitioned to fighters and fighter-bombers and multi-engined pilots transitioned to transports or bombers. Pilots got 2 months of training before being sent into combat duty.
I put this together some time ago when comparing USAAF and RAF training.
USAAF training had four phases:-
• Primary Flying School
• Basic Flying School
• Advanced Flying School
• Transition Training
Primary Flying School
The Primary Flying schools were civilian operated under contract for the USAAF. These civilian schools used Stearman, Ryan and Fairchild trainers owned by the USAAF, but their flight instructors were civilian employees. Each cadet received 60 hours of flight training in nine weeks.
Basic Flying School
Here the aircraft were changed to BT-9 or Bt-13. Cadets were learned how to fly at night, by instruments, information and cross-country from one point to another. Also, for the first time, he operated a plane equipped with a two-way radio and a two-pitch propeller. This training took 9 weeks and involved about 70 hours in the air. It should be noted that the schools were now under USAAF control and apart from the additional complexity of the training and machinery, there was also the cultural shock as discipline was more rigorous.
Advanced Flying School
Again we have a change in aircraft to the AT-6 for future fighter pilots. The time in training was nine weeks and took about 70 hours flying time. The emphasis was on learning aerial gunnery as well as combat manoeuvres and increasing their skills in navigation, formation and instrument flying.
Transition Training
This is where the cadet was introduced to the aircraft to be used in combat. For a fighter pilot this took two months and about 50 hours, but was more for multi engine pilots.
Other Items
Personally I was surprised by the lack of time allocated by the USAAF to this vital period. I think that the impact was reduced as most trainees were sent to units in the USA giving them a period of training and adjustment before being thrown into battle. If anyone has more information on this I would appreciate it.
One other item of note was that each level of training Primary, Basic, Advanced and Transition was undertaken at different bases.
Summary
USAAF Flight Training covered 29 weeks with approximately 260 hours.
The main source I used is as follows
Factsheets : AAF Training During WWII
My apologies for the abbreviated and incomplete description of that program.Not that I'm disagreeing with you Wes (because I'm not), but were the instructors at least given remittance for the aircraft that the military took?
...and what are instructors doing in a combat zone? Why aren't they back home performing the job they were assigned to?
Again, not disgreeing with you, and I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just having issues wrapping my brain around all this.
Elvis
Didn't they "requisition" horses etc. during the Civil War?My apologies for the abbreviated and incomplete description of that program.
The instructors in these programs were (I'm told) mostly guys who'd been instructing in the previous prewar CPT (Civilian Pilot Training) program instituted to bulk up the number of trained pilots in the US when at least some people could see that war was coming, and most Americans had their heads in the sand. When Dec 7 came, and the OCS training programs were hurriedly set up, the staff of these contract flight schools were given "Essential Personnel" draft deferments.
At the same time, private pilots nationwide were grounded, except those participating in CAP and other war related work. Privately owned aircraft of types considered desirable to the war effort were subject to requisition. The instructors at the contract schools' first assignments were to search out and requisition private planes of the type designated for their school. In the case of the local schools, that was J3 Cubs. The owners were given receipts for their aircraft and a fancy letter thanking them for the loan of their plane and a promise to return it freshly overhauled on presentation of the letter at the cessation of hostilities.
Sometime in the autumn of 1944, it was determined that the demand for replacement aircrew was going to decline, and the training programs were taken off "emergency" status, resulting in shutting down most of the OCS attached contract flight schools, as well as the WASP program and most of CAP's patrolling and anti-submarine activities.
At the same time, appalling losses at Normandy, Italy, Tarawa, and other Pacific beachheads combined with the near exhaustion of physically qualified civilian manpower, dictated re-assessing some of the physical standards and existing deferments.
Long story short, many of the instructors at the contract schools received orders to report to Army basic or Marine boot before they even were informed their program had been cut and their deferments cancelled. The schools were depopulated and shut down so fast that the J3s were often stacked on their noses in locked hangars and abandoned, the fight school owners often following their instructors off to boot camp, and their business going derelict. Needless to say, the paperwork for the "borrowed" planes tended to disappear or get archived somewhere separate from the airframes themselves.
Postwar, officers of the defense property administration (or whatever they called that outfit), not aware of the provenance of the aircraft, often sold them as surplus. When owners presented their "loan letter", they were told "We have no record of that aircraft. Probably destroyed in an accident." Then they would point to the "hold harmless" clause in the letter and say "The American people thank you for your contribution to victory!"
When I was a kid hanging out at the airport, there were a number of these guys around who had been part of that whole escapade, and the owner of the FBO (and later, my boss) had been Chief Instructor there during the war.
Cheers,
Wes
In times of total war, all governments take what they need from anyone not influential enough to prevent it.Didn't they "requisition" horses etc. during the Civil War?
Aptly put.In times of total war, all governments take what they need from anyone not influential enough to prevent it.
Because the job they were assigned to was abolished, their draft deferments were cancelled, and bodies were needed for cannon fodder.and what are instructors doing in a combat zone? Why aren't they back home performing the job they were assigned to?
My dad (4F due to a childhood accident) was working at Bell's Niagara plant in '44-45, and he said the draft came and stripped the plant of able bodied men aged 45 and under (many of whom had been previously deferred as over-aged, and/or defense industry essential personnel), leaving the place in the hands of the geezers, the gimps, and the gals. (and the Russians, of course!)At the same time, appalling infantry losses at Normandy, Italy, Tarawa, and other Pacific beachheads combined with the near exhaustion of physically qualified civilian manpower, dictated re-assessing some of the physical standards and existing deferments.
Hey, JimmyZ, I've got a box of WWII Army Air Force textbooks and training materials given to me years ago by a B17 pilot who used to hang out at a flight school where I worked. I've read them til they're dog eared and now I need to downsize. You want them?
Cheers,
Wes
Everybody here seems to be ignoring the VERY FRST flight instruction most USAAF and USN cadets got: the preflight selection program. There were aircrew OCS/preflight training programs set up on university and college campuses all across the country to give a basic grounding in military aeronautics as well as evaluate candidates for different crew positions. Each of these was tied to a contract flight school that gave all candidates 20-30 hours in REAL simple planes such as J3s and Taylorcrafts to determine aptitudes for pilot vs non-pilot crew assignments.
We had two here in Vermont, one attached to Norwich University and one at University of Vermont. As late as the 1980s the local flight school was still providing that service to AFROTC at Norwich.
Mid 1944, when air combat attrition was discovered to be less than projected and infantry much higher, these schools were suddenly abolished and the instructors and other personnel immediately drafted.
The aircraft for these schools were forcibly "loaned" to the government for the duration by their reluctant owners, but then sold as surplus postwar rather than returned.
My boss at the flight school had been chief instructor in the Norwich U contract school during the war, and failed his induction physical when he got drafted, but several of his instructors were KIA at Iwo and Okinawa.
Cheers,
Wes
Back then, ab initio students had never been contaminated with nosewheels, so didn't have bad habits to unlearn. Today's nosedragger pilots tend to relax and quit "flying" once the wheels are on the ground and start "driving", and our kiddy car airplanes let us get away with it....most of the time. A taildragger has to be "flown" right up until the chocks are in place and the engine shut down. An awkward gust of wind that your taxiing Cessna 150 would hardly notice might spin your Cessna 140 around and maybe even dump it on its nose if you're not paying attention.I know people who have (in modern times) done conversion training to the Stearman after many dozens of tailwheel time in J3's and it was still a huge challenge. However on the flipside, those airmen from the 40's seems have mastered these aircraft much easier than people do in modern times.
Back then, ab initio students had never been contaminated with nosewheels, so didn't have bad habits to unlearn. Today's nosedragger pilots tend to relax and quit "flying" once the wheels are on the ground and start "driving", and our kiddy car airplanes let us get away with it....most of the time. A taildragger has to be "flown" right up until the chocks are in place and the engine shut down. An awkward gust of wind that your taxiing Cessna 150 would hardly notice might spin your Cessna 140 around and maybe even dump it on its nose if you're not paying attention.
The Stearman is in fact a formidable looking and feeling machine to confront for the first time, (so tall and mean-looking) but the military trainer birds were actually a little underpowered for their size and weight, and hell for stout, so they could take more G's than you could, and draggy as they were, they wouldn't get out of hand if you accidentally got one pointed downhill. Most Stearmans today have been up-engined, and are a little more frisky on the takeoff roll. Never have flown a stock 220 HP Stearman.
I have flown a PT26 Fairchild, and it's a "polite as your old grandmother" machine, second only to a Cessna 170B as far as docile tail wheel handling is concerned. The PT23 I sat in, but didn't fly, did not impress me with its forward visibility with that round engine. (Sideslips to a landing, anyone?) PT22s had a reputation for engine failures at the most awkward moments. That Kinner engine always sounds like it's not sure it wants to stay running. It makes the clatterbox Wright 1820 sound smooth by comparison.
With all of these machines, it's all about the instructor, and letting you (the student) get your feet wet one toe at a time. Since most of the instuctors were civilians of draft age, working on an "essential personnel" deferment, and the alternative was the sands of Iwo Jima, there was an incentive not to crunch too many trainers or trainees.
Cheers,
Wes
And a sweetheart in the air, too, but she makes you work hard for a good landing, and if you're brave enough to do a touch-and-go, be ginger on the throttle or you'll find yourself in the weeds on the left side of the runway with (if you're lucky) only a $craped up wingtip to apologize for. OTOH, if you dump her on her nose and sudden-stop the engine it can get mighty pricey.I find the PT-17 one of the best looking aircraft in existence
Jimmy,Hi all.
I'm looking for information (and / or discussion) on the training path that WWII pilots would have gone through. To be specific, I'm looking for information on what aircraft would have been the first a pilot would have been trained on (if these was more than one, what would have determined which one), the second aircraft, third and so forth, and the amount of hours on each on average before progressing to the next. It would be different for different air forces, and I'm interested in USAAF, USN, USMC, RAF and FAA. I'm also interested in at what stage bomber pilots would have moved on to different types than the fighter pilots. How would an RAF pilot would have progressed through training to flying a Spitfire, or a USAAF pilot to a B-17 bomber, as an example.
Apologies if it has been discussed before.
Cheers
Jimmy