XP-39 II - The Groundhog Day Thread

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Thanks for the responses, gents. I'm replying-to-all to save time and coalesce my response into a couple of key thoughts that apply to all.

There are 2 fundamental flaws in the proposed concept of US mechanical superiority. The first is that other countries had a similar proportion of working-age men engaged in agriculture compared to more technical industries (e.g. Shortround's comment about "many of those military age men (18-40) even from rural areas had at least some exposure to cars, or tractors or engines of some sort."). The second, and far more significant, is the creation of a false dichotomy where car ownership/awareness of the internal combustion engine is directly correlated with technical awareness/proficiency.

In the 1930s, the UK had a greater proportion of men engaged in industry rather than agriculture compared to the US (figures for 1940 agriculture/industry: US - 18.5/23.4; UK 10%/36%) (Sources: US , UK). Almost all that industrial output required mechanics of some sort or other, whether maintaining pit engines, factory steam plants, machinery or whatever (e.g. one of my cousins who died in WW1 worked in a brewery but his job was maintaining a steam engine).

Even in rural areas, lower tractor ownership did not equate to a lack of technical expertise. The internal combustion engine was not the only means of providing automotive power, particularly in rural areas. In the UK, a great many farms were still using steam traction engines well into the 1930s. Many of these engines were decades old and required replacement parts to be hand-made/fettled by the owner or the local blacksmith (maybe that's where the workforce came from to hand-make all those Merlin engines? :) ).

I come from a working-class industrial town and there were literally hundreds of mechanical firms supporting the town; everything from metal forging to glassmaking to toolmaking and machining. Almost the entire town built, operated or maintained mechanical systems of one sort or another. To suggest that, somehow, these men were technically bereft because they couldn't drive and hadn't operated an internal combustion engine is ludicrous. To cite a personal example, my family only got its first car in the early 1950s. However, my three uncles collectively built the car from multiple boxes of bits. My family was dirt-poor working class but my uncles were all sufficiently technically-minded to build a car from components, and two of them had been driving for well over a decade when they made the car...but they'd never owned a car before.

My fundamental gripe is the over-emphasis of car ownership on the penetration of technology within society. America had certain factors which promoted the internal combustion engine. However, the absence of those factors did not make other populations any less technically savvy/aware, percentage-wise across the workforce.

I'm afraid that it is difficult for the average American to separate car ownership from their emotional makeup. We are a fragile people, especially these days.

but you are correct. The average GI of the time did not possess more technical knowledge that any of their colleagues across the developed world.

A friend of mine made chief on a LST in the pacific because he was the only enlisted guy who could read the electrical drawings. He says he happened to learn how from an eccentric high school teacher.
 
Excellent material, thank you Thomas.

I have to concede that it appears from those photos that the ASB is totally installed forward of the fuselage joint line making P39 expert correct. There only remains the question - why did Bell create all that waste space if not for the ASB. I shall continue looking and report further if I can solve that question. Maybe so the engine can be shifted rearwards during removal so that the stub shaft clears the roll over truss. Only a WAG as I know the P-39 engine can move rearwards, or be tilted, during removal.
I can't prove this but I believe that Bell designed the P-39 from the beginning to accommodate an ASB, as well as larger, heavier 4 blade propellers. Otherwise it's just an amazing coincidence that the engine bays were exactly the same size. All the manufacturers knew that Allison was developing engines with more horsepower, different supercharger gears, auxiliary stage superchargers, etc. The ASB had been in development since 1940.
 
Saw this news item today:

Luton Airport: Too many passengers at front of plane caused take-off issue


CofG issues can still bite, even in the modern era of air travel.

That's exactly the sort of communications error that resulted in us flying BOS->BTV with 400 pounds of undocumented cargo in aft baggage and out of CG aft by nearly 3 inches. The captain and I were issued emergency revocations of our certificates on the spot by an FAA inspector, a new hire in training, who didn't know he lacked that authority. We got an unscheduled day off while the Feds got to the bottom of the issue and cooler heads prevailed.

PS: The captain and I both got an aircraft accident on our records, scotching any chance of a major airline career. Even though we were on the ground and parked, there were passengers present, one of whom scraped her elbow on the airstair door (injury) and a flight control surface (the tail skeg) was damaged, which by definition, elevated the damage from "minor" to "substantial".
 
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Hey MiTasol,

I was wondering if the excess length was for the Continental V-1430 engine inastallation. I do not have any good references for the arrangement/dimensions/weights for this engine as it was planned for the P-39E/P-63. If it was a significantly lighter installation I suspect the center of the engine's mass would have to be farther to the rear to maintain CG . . . maybe that is why? Just a WAG.
The XP39 was shorter and was lengthened/stretched for the production P39. Perhaps that space is just a space that occurred when they stretched it?
 
I can't prove this but I believe that Bell designed the P-39 from the beginning to accommodate an ASB, as well as larger, heavier 4 blade propellers. Otherwise it's just an amazing coincidence that the engine bays were exactly the same size. All the manufacturers knew that Allison was developing engines with more horsepower, different supercharger gears, auxiliary stage superchargers, etc. The ASB had been in development since 1940.

Unless Bell had a time machine or a crystal ball, there's no way that the P-39 could have been designed from the beginning to accommodate an ASB.

XP-39-BE
Bell Model 11, one prototype 38–326 first flown 6 April 1938. Powered by an Allison V-1710-17 (E2) engine (1,150 hp/858 kW), the aircraft was fitted with a General Electric B-5 turbosupercharger, creating a two stage supercharging system similar to the P-38 (engine-mounted mechanical supercharger, remote exhaust-driven turbo-supercharger as a second stage for high-altitude). Provision was made for two .50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns in the forward fuselage and one 25 mm (.98 in) cannon but aircraft remained unarmed. Later converted to XP-39B.

XP-39B
One conversion first flown 25 November 1939. Streamlined XP-39 based on NACA wind tunnel testing resulting in revised canopy and wheel door shape, oil cooler/ engine coolant radiator intakes moved from right fuselage to wing roots, fuselage increased length (by 1 ft 1 in, to 29 ft 9 in) and decreased wingspan (by 1 ft 10 in, to 34 ft). The turbosupercharger was removed, and the single-stage, single speed, supercharged Allison V-1710-37 (E5) engine (1,090 hp/813 kW) was left in place. The carburetor air intake was moved behind canopy, just above the carburetor.
 
...

XP-39-BE
Bell Model 11, one prototype 38–326 first flown 6 April 1938. Powered by an Allison V-1710-17 (E2) engine (1,150 hp/858 kW), the aircraft was fitted with a General Electric B-5 turbosupercharger, creating a two stage supercharging system similar to the P-38 (engine-mounted mechanical supercharger, remote exhaust-driven turbo-supercharger as a second stage for high-altitude).
...

(my bold)
Turbo-supercharger was the 1st stage, working whenever the engine was working (regardless the altitude).
 
Unless Bell had a time machine or a crystal ball, there's no way that the P-39 could have been designed from the beginning to accommodate an ASB.

XP-39-BE
Bell Model 11, one prototype 38–326 first flown 6 April 1938. Powered by an Allison V-1710-17 (E2) engine (1,150 hp/858 kW), the aircraft was fitted with a General Electric B-5 turbosupercharger, creating a two stage supercharging system similar to the P-38 (engine-mounted mechanical supercharger, remote exhaust-driven turbo-supercharger as a second stage for high-altitude). Provision was made for two .50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns in the forward fuselage and one 25 mm (.98 in) cannon but aircraft remained unarmed. Later converted to XP-39B.

XP-39B
One conversion first flown 25 November 1939. Streamlined XP-39 based on NACA wind tunnel testing resulting in revised canopy and wheel door shape, oil cooler/ engine coolant radiator intakes moved from right fuselage to wing roots, fuselage increased length (by 1 ft 1 in, to 29 ft 9 in) and decreased wingspan (by 1 ft 10 in, to 34 ft). The turbosupercharger was removed, and the single-stage, single speed, supercharged Allison V-1710-37 (E5) engine (1,090 hp/813 kW) was left in place. The carburetor air intake was moved behind canopy, just above the carburetor.
First flight of the XP-39 was 6 April 1939.

Development work on the auxiliary stage dates from 1938.
 
Wasn't designed around the aux. stage, just allowed for.


Allowed for how?

In 1938-40 Allison didn't know how big the aux stage should be and they sure hadn't decided on how to drive it.

About all Allison could tell Bell (or any other company was that they were thinking about/developing a two stage system.
They didn't make any components even for a ground test rig until 1940.

The aircraft companies needed to know more than just the length of the engine, they needed to know how wide and tall the aux supercharger was going to be, how much it weighed,
They needed to know the cooling requirements of the engine, both water/glycol and oil, which are different and larger than a single stage engine.

How much "preliminary" information was put out I don't know but it seems to be a very large stretch that Bell both allowed room for the two stage engine and then never tried to put one into the P-39 when the two stage engine did become available (in 1942)
 
First flight dates are totally immaterial to when design of the ASB was commenced and at that stage the length of the ASB would be only guesswork as there were multiple models and configurations of ASB built so early on it would purely be guesswork on the length of a engine with ASB.

Look at http://www.enginehistory.org/Piston/Allison/AllisonImages/V-1710-G(02).jpg and Google Image Result for http://www.enginehistory.org/Piston/Allison/AllisonImages/V-1710-F32.jpg and
1602382512939.png
for just three of the many other versions.

The first significant date was the date the design started and the second was the date the first metal was cut. After that you are in modification (next model) territory.
 
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Allowed for how?

In 1938-40 Allison didn't know how big the aux stage should be and they sure hadn't decided on how to drive it.

About all Allison could tell Bell (or any other company was that they were thinking about/developing a two stage system.
They didn't make any components even for a ground test rig until 1940.

The aircraft companies needed to know more than just the length of the engine, they needed to know how wide and tall the aux supercharger was going to be, how much it weighed,
They needed to know the cooling requirements of the engine, both water/glycol and oil, which are different and larger than a single stage engine.

How much "preliminary" information was put out I don't know but it seems to be a very large stretch that Bell both allowed room for the two stage engine and then never tried to put one into the P-39 when the two stage engine did become available (in 1942)
They put one in the XP-39E and flew it in April 1942. Unfortunately they also put a new wing and tail on it and in their own inimitable AAF style they made it weigh 8900lbs. It was decently fast up to 25000', but would barely outclimb a regular P-39D. It never got the four blade propeller it needed.

If they had just put that aux. stage into a regular P-39D it would have only weighed 7900lbs including 4 blade propeller. At 1000lbs less than the E it would have been a rocket.
 
Turbo specified by the AAF.

Wasn't designed around the aux. stage, just allowed for.

Bell designed the XP-39 around the turbo the USAAC specified, but allowed for an auxiliary stage version of the engine that the USAAC did not want nor specify as a possibility, that was barely an inkling of an idea at Allison who, btw, were not very quick with their development at that stage?
 
No, the six .50 cal guns were Larry Bell's idea when he realized the P-38E was never going to be an interceptor. He was trying to pitch it as a ground attack plane.
 
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