Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
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With the sole exception of the D4Y we haven't found a succesful operational single used as a bomber. It isn't that it can't be done, it's that it is not a logical use of resources. Two engines get you a far better bomber, and if you want a tactical aircraft you can use a current or slightly older fighter. Tactical aircraft don't need the range. Range and bombload involve trade-offs for a single which leave you in Battle, Ki-30, Ki-32 territory. Where singles had to be used, at sea, even the bigger engines didn't give the TBM or SB2C the kind of speed that beat a pursuing fighter.
Things I've found looking around at what could be done;
Ki-30 and Ki-32, with their fixed gear, were just as fast, or do I mean slow, as the Battle.
The proposed Ju187 with it's Jumo 213 was no faster than Ju87D. And every Jumo could have powered a 190D or half a Ju88G
Once jabos came in the idea of single-engine specialist bombers disappeared except for tactical aircraft and carrier-borne types. And the F-105.
In terms of those pre-war Japanese pre-war planes there is also the Ki-15, which (according to Wiki) made 300 mph with a ~640 hp engine and fixed landing gear. It's a recon plane but could carry a 550 lb bomb which is plenty.
First, if something looks too good on Wiki, it probably is.The B7N was even faster at 350 mph and certainly could have been an effective naval bomber if it had come out earlier.
You misunderstood my point - I don't think you can lobby to get some bleeding edge engine that the front line fighters don't have. I think you'll have what they have, basically. Not the newer experimental types. No early Griffin for example, I don't think you could count on that.If you don't use the best engines you have got you are already screwed.
Bomber with best engines vs smaller fighter with 2nd best engine????
Bomber with 2nd best engine vs fighter with best engine?????
Arguable. V-1710-73 was producing 1325hp for takeoff, the only difference from the -39 on the P-40D&E was the boost rating used, and in fact many P-40Es were refitted with -73s in certain Theaters.The A-36 was great airplane, but it does point to a few problems.
1, it arguably one of the most streamlined planes around and maybe the most streamline. A bomber with enclosed bomb stowage has little chance of being as good.
2, the A-36 used a 1325hp engine for take-off which it puts 20-30% more powerful than any V-12 engine in 1939-40, let alone before. It is 15% more powerful than the Allisons used in the P-40D & E or even the Mustang Is.
I agree field length - and field surface, as well as training, are all potential issues in deploying a relatively high wing-loading, small winged fast bomber. Maybe ask the American Seabees to make some airfields for you.3, and that brings us to one of my hobby horses, Field Length. The A-36 with its 1325hp engine needed 3150ft at 10,000lbs (full internal fuel and two 500lb bombs) to clear 50ft .
And that is at 0 degrees C or 32 degrees F Add 20% more length for 20 degrees C or 72 degrees F. This is on a hard runway.
You can operate a Halifax or Lancaster out of the same size airstrip.
4. now figure out the operational radius. with 180 US gallons. And any other plane you can make without a trunk load of NA drawings/documents won't have the same range.
How close you come is subject to question.
Yes on a pure accounting level, this makes sense. This is the accountant's logic. The devil is in the details though.Ok, lets start doing the math. If we want 120,000lb of bombs on target (area) we need 20 big bombers and so we are going to loose 1 bomber for every mission.
If we use the 1000lb load bomber we need 120 planes and we are going to loose 2.4 bombers per mission. Adjust for imagined crew size.
The only advantage is the increase accuracy of the small bomber. How much of that is training?
Now you may be able (with increased losses and smaller bomb load) attack targets further away with the big bomber.
You can't attack targets much further away with the small bomber at all.
That's true, and the target type.A lot depends on the theater of operations.
First, if something looks too good on Wiki, it probably is.
The Ki-15 was an amazing design, it also used a 640hp engine for take off that gave 750hp at 4,000 meters,
However most of the planes used 900hp Mitsubishi 14 cylinder radials. It was noted that the Low powered Ki-15s lost speed in prolonged wide turns and take-off and landing runs were disappointing.
The 551 bombload is probably what they used in 1945 when they were used for Kamikaze duty.
As far as the B7N goes, The Avenger would have been a great naval bomber if they had stuck an R-3350 engine in it in 1943.
All kinds of airplanes would have great if they had managed to stick 1944-45 engines in them in 1940-42.
Not having self-sealing tanks does matter.
this 'fast single engined bomber' only achieved the 'fast' by deleting basics like self sealing tanks and armour, that made it a flying torch that lit up with a single strike.
Not quite right. The A-36 used the -87 engine with 7.48 supercharger gears. and we are getting well into 1943 and later. The -87 engine made 1325hp at a lower boost pressure and a was allowed to make 1100hp at 2600rpm (max continuous) instead of 1000hp that the higher supercharger gears were limited to. The -87 was also allowed to use 1325hp for Military power while the -73 was still limited to 1150hp. Now the -87 was only good for about 5-6000ft doing this. This limits have got nothing to do with WER. This is what the designers and manual writers were looking at. One practical difference, even after the over boosting and WER showed up was that use of Military power, even if done several times in one flight, required no notes in the log book and no extra maintenance procedures.Arguable. V-1710-73 was producing 1325hp for takeoff, the only difference from the -39 on the P-40D&E was the boost rating used, and in fact many P-40Es were refitted with -73s in certain Theaters.
More importantly, P-40K, F, L, M, N which were more widely used than the D or E and were contemporaneous with the A-36 had the same available horsepower.
Yes the devil is in the details.Yes on a pure accounting level, this makes sense. This is the accountant's logic. The devil is in the details though.
When we look at the operational history, it doesn't seem to be so cut and dry. In Theaters where they had bombers with much heavier loads available, after hard won lessons, they relied on fast two-engined bombers and fighter bombers. A-20s and Baltimore's, Hurricanes and P-40s were the favored bombers in the Western Desert and Med for the British, even though they had Wellingtons which carried a much larger bomb load. Problem being that the Wellingtons were way too slow to evade flak and fighters, and couldn't effectively bomb Tactical targets at low altitude.
Try looking at the loss rates for low altitude daylight bombing for the Mosquito.Meanwhile I think the Mosquito had a much lower loss rate than the Lancaster, right? Wiki says 0.7% compared to 2.2% for heavy bombers.
A fast recon plane using a small engine is not a good basis for a bomber, They are among the lightest constructed aircraft. By they time you beef them up some of the performance goes away. The Ki-15 looks big in the pictures. It's wing was just over 2 ft longer than wing on a Ki-27 fighter and just about 10% bigger in area. (10 sq ft smaller than a Ki-43) and with the 9 cylinder radial engine in was about 10% heavier than the Ki-27.Fair enough, but if that airframe could manage anywhere close to 300 mph with a 650-750 hp engine, I think you would have a candidate for a good fast bomber if you put retractable landing gear and a 1,000 hp engine in it.
TBF was bigger and heavier. it also carried a bit bigger payload, it's deck performance may have stricter (shorter deck and/or less speed?) and it's range capability was not the huge gap that Wiki claims. Normal range for the B7A was much closer to 1000 miles rather than 1800 miles. Fill the TBF full of fuel (inside the bomb bay and or under wing) and see how far it can fly.TBF was a great and very useful plane, but it was not known for agility, speed or grace and I don't think it could compare with the B7 in any way on the design level. Which is fair enough as it's a much earlier design. It's also much bigger and considerably heavier.
You might get some argument about the sturdiness of the Sku and SBD and A-31,There were several slow to moderately fast, single engined dive bombers around in the early part of the war. Skua, D3A, SBD, A-31, Su-2 etc. None of them seemed to be able to withstand the forces of dive bombing as well as a Stuka, or to be very survivable without fairly heavy fighter escort, but they had their moment. Some of those types were close to being a fast bomber, especially if you removed some of the extra dive bombing gear, and maybe gave them a bit better engine.
Aichi B7A?With the sole exception of the D4Y we haven't found a succesful operational single used as a bomber.
Not quite right. The A-36 used the -87 engine with 7.48 supercharger gears. and we are getting well into 1943 and later. The -87 engine made 1325hp at a lower boost pressure and a was allowed to make 1100hp at 2600rpm (max continuous) instead of 1000hp that the higher supercharger gears were limited to. The -87 was also allowed to use 1325hp for Military power while the -73 was still limited to 1150hp. Now the -87 was only good for about 5-6000ft doing this. This limits have got nothing to do with WER. This is what the designers and manual writers were looking at. One practical difference, even after the over boosting and WER showed up was that use of Military power, even if done several times in one flight, required no notes in the log book and no extra maintenance procedures.
Yes the devil is in the details.
In the Desert range was not a big consideration for tactical use. While it was 630 miles form Tobruk to Tripoli you could usually find something to bomb/strafe much closer to the front line airfields. In Europe or the Pacific with several hundred miles of water between the home bases and the enemy bases short ranged fighters were not much good. And in 1936-42 the single engine bombers were sometimes considered to be more than tactical bombers or were intended to be in the first 4 years or so of the period. A-20s were not popular in parts of the Pacific because they didn't have the desired range.
Try looking at the loss rates for low altitude daylight bombing for the Mosquito.
Ugh, here we go again with this self-sealing tanks and Japanese aircraft, ad nauseum...
A couple of things, the D4Y first flew in 1940, it was designed at a time when no one was putting self-sealing tanks in their aircraft. The SBD for example was not built with self-sealing tanks until the -3 model as standard and that first entered service in March 1941, the previous SBD-2 was retrofitted with them, but was not built with them. The earliest Ju 87 variants were not built with self-sealing tanks, nor were the Battle, Skua and plenty other similar type aircraft of the time.
On entry into service in 1942, D4Y pilots complained about the lack of self-sealing tanks, because other Japanese aircraft in service had them!
A fast recon plane using a small engine is not a good basis for a bomber, They are among the lightest constructed aircraft. By they time you beef them up some of the performance goes away. The Ki-15 looks big in the pictures. It's wing was just over 2 ft longer than wing on a Ki-27 fighter and just about 10% bigger in area. (10 sq ft smaller than a Ki-43) and with the 9 cylinder radial engine in was about 10% heavier than the Ki-27.
TBF was bigger and heavier. it also carried a bit bigger payload, it's deck performance may have stricter (shorter deck and/or less speed?) and it's range capability was not the huge gap that Wiki claims. Normal range for the B7A was much closer to 1000 miles rather than 1800 miles. Fill the TBF full of fuel (inside the bomb bay and or under wing) and see how far it can fly.
You might get some argument about the sturdiness of the Sku and SBD and A-31,
The problem with dive bombers was that they were several hundred pounds heavier than a light level bomber (or shallow diver) to keep them from breaking when pulling out of dives. There was some cross over. Battles were noted as being tough but they really didn't perform hundreds of practice dives in training. They did some. Battles were also over built as the engineers were sort of feeling their way with early monoplane structures.
Now in 1936-38 with 700-900hp engines that was a problem. 1939-40 with 1000-1100hp engines it got a little bit easier, in 1941-42 with 1200-1400hp engines things got bit easier again and in 1944 with 1900-2000 hp engines the designers jobs were a lot easier. A TBF-3 had more power than Blenheim or early SB-2. That was the progress of 6-8 years.
A 1930s single engine bomber does not have the power to go fast, get out of small fields, carry more than 500-550lbs worth of bombs and have the full capacity to fly very far.
They tried to make up for the lack of speed with the rear guns.
As we have already established, the US already had at least 1,600 hp engines in 1942. By 1943 they had up to 1,900 hp
Even beter - USA has 1850 HP engines (R-2800s) in production in 1941, and 2000 HP R-2800s in production from January 1942.
Right but when were aircraft with these engines deployed in the field? I think 1943 right?
For example, four B-26s attacked the Japanese fleet at Midway in mid-1942.