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Which source do you have for this claim? From testflights the Bf 109F4 was 660 km/h (emergency output 5 min.)fast and now you want to tell me that the P51B was 740 km/h fast?
Kurfürst - Mtt. AG. Datenblatt, Me 109 G - 1. Ausführung
How do you want to have initiative against the Kammhuber Line and do such raids unintercepted?
The Kammhuber Line with it's search radar is fact since 1940! And to my knowledge radar is functioning at day and night
The only effect would be a deeper defending system of the JG's against the P51 and the Nightfighters of the LW, from 1941/42, would be the bomber interceptor of the day with the FW 190A and the BF 109F as P51 interceptor.
Also all short comings of the Kammhuber Line at night wouldn't exist at day, so the german search radar could work at it's full potential.
Or do you want to tell us the RAF had the possibility at 1941/42 to do 500 or 1000 bomber raids at day and night?
Merlin 45 powered P51 would not have the performance of a Spitfire MkV because it would be 2000kg heavier (full loaded) then a Spit MK V.
So I don't see how the P51 (with Merlin 45) will be an efffective escort fighter.
Both the FW 190A and the Bf 109F were at 390 to 397 mph combat high speed at 1941/42, so I don't see any significant advantage of the P51 at that timeline, but it would be much slower in climb performance against both german counterparts. And also as reallife has shown against the Spitfire MK V turning performance isn't that important compare to speed, climb and role rate.
Sorry but this argumentation had nothing to do with the military, performance and most important the technology facts from 1941/42.
It wouldn't be that easy with an "underperforming" P51 (Merlin45), compare to the Bf 109F and FW 190A, to destroy the LW.
To me, it is more the opposite, because the LW could play all it's good parts much more easily at day light and as I said I have great doubts that a P51 Merlin 45 powered was in the same performance leage as a Spitfire Mk V except perhaps speed.
Why putting Fw190 and P51 in, then?Why? Because he is asking about the airframes in use in 1941...
riacrato you are quiet correct, sorry was my failure.
I have also seen the primary sources with start-and-emergency power at 670 km/h (415mph).
But that changed nothing if we take combat power 395 mph or start and emergency power 410-415mph, no P51 B was ever 50 mph faster and a P51 A was slower and not 20 mph faster then a Bf 109F-4!
I would be highly dubious over claims that involve the Luftwaffe replacing the Me 109F4 with a G1 that is 20 mph slower and less maouverable.
Why putting Fw190 and P51 in, then?
I would be highly dubious over claims that involve the Luftwaffe replacing the Me 109F4 with a G1 that is 20 mph slower and less maouverable.
Some units of JG2 replaced their 109Fs with Fw190As and some G-1s. The G-2, essentially a G-1 without pressurization, replaced the 109Fs in several JGs.
I would be highly dubious over claims that involve the Luftwaffe replacing the Me 109F4 with a G1 that is 20 mph slower and less maouverable.
To be honest I was unaware the Kammhuber line had too many shortcomings at night. Im assuming that as a system it would operate as well as it did in 1944. Which gave the LW warning day or night (not considering Window) but still necessitated the committment of more than 1500 day fighters to try and counter the efforts of some hundreds of Mustangs escprting a force with an average strike siz of about 500 or so bombers. If the british adopte a similar approach, why is it impossible or unlikely that the germans would need to react in a similar fashion...ie deploy a massive force against the British in 1942 operating the same as the Americans did in 1944
Not according to some of the posters. They seem to think it would be a fast or nearly as fast and effective as just about all the fighters in 1942.
I cant really respond to that (except to say that I think you are playing up the strengths of the LW and not looking at the overall issue) , but note that others dont agree with you. You will have to take it up with them, I guess.
Were they combat ready? Did they have relaible and combat ready propulsion systems?@DerAdlerIstGelandet,
well then if that's so, I suppose He178/280 and particularly Me262 were much more advanced airframes of the time, then either of already metioned.
Till now, nobody had denied that a P51 at 1941/42 would be 2000kg heavier then a Bf 109 F-4 and except the ridiculous claims of davparlr
I would deny that the P-51A was 2000kg/4400 pounds heavier. My figures could be wrong but Nowarra suggests that the F-4 at Basic was 2255Kg/4972pounds and max Gross was 2980KG/6570 lbs.. The Mustang IA with 180 gallons of fuel and full armament was 6185/8153 pounds empty/max gross = ~2764KG/3697 Kg so ~ 700Kg more with 4x20mm and 125rpg each (IIRC)??
to the P51 B and P51 A, nobody had shown any serious data's that a long range P51 at 1941/42 could realy match against the Bf 109F-4 and the Fw 190A. There will/is the possibility that it can match perhaps at speed, but not at climb and roll rate.
The Mustang IA could not climb with either but probably could turn with both even if slightly over matched and could definitely out roll a 109 at intermediate to high speed and approach the FW 190 roll at high speed. The a/c were close enough to each other and a Spit V that the outcome of a fight would be largely pilot/tactical situation.
A P51 long range fighter at 1941/42 against the Bf 109F-4 and FW 190A2-3, is miles away from the advantage of the P 51B against the Bf 109 G6 or FW 190 A5/6/8. So it would have no advantage the advantage would be at the german aircarfts at 1941/1942!
The Mustang 1A/A36 was a formidable fighter below 10,000 feet and acceptable in air combat up to 20000 feet even if slightly outclassed by the 109F and FW 190A3-4. The P-38 and P-40 and Hurricane were below the Mustang IA in most operational altitudes. It wasn't 'helpless' any more than a 109G and FW 190A7 were 'helpless' against the P-51B
I don't think that you can compare the situation of 1943 and 1944 to the situation of 1941/42 especially when the RAF was at it's own feet without the help of the USA and the 8th AF and at the same time, the LW had more strenghts compare to the RAF alone and was much better from quality (Pilots and aircrafts).
The Bf 109 F-4 and FW 190A3 were the cutting edge at 1942 at the ETO.
The situation was fundemental different at 1943/1944 from the quality/performance of the aircrafts and the pilots.
One Himmelbett could only direct 2 Nightfighter at the same time to enemy bombers, this problem was solved with the introduction of the Lichtenstein Radar (mid 1942). At day light every Bomber interceptor could search his own target at the same time, what will make a huge difference.
No, but the thread starter specifically asked for airframe.Were they combat ready? Did they have relaible and combat ready propulsion systems?
So, I'm not sure what's going on here...is this P51 vs Bf109 vs Spitfire vs Fw190 thread, or what?In other words, this time on we should discuss the capabilities of the airframe, independently from the engine it was mounted on it.
We will have to disagree on that. i dispute a huge qualitative difference between the LW and RAF in terms of both equipment and personnel. Certainly there was an edge enjoyed by the LW, but the margins are far smaller than the los sheets suggest. ther were reasons for the one sided loss rates, and they had nothing to do with either pilots or aircraft performance. they had a lot to do with range and LW engegement policies ( only engage when favaourable)
@DerAdlerIstGelandet,
well then if that's so, I suppose He178/280 and particularly Me262 were much more advanced airframes of the time, then either of already metioned.