2nd BG color markings in 2nd half of 1944

[seesul]

Correct, that´s why the color photo of 2nd BG Fort would be the best prove. And I´m trying to get in touch with Steve Birdsall...let' s see, maybe some Australians could help.

 

[seesul]

This thread has bothered me since it opened -- I know I said black, and Roger and Steve said blue, but I can't be certain I was right. I had a 4x5 color transparency from a Fifteenth AF history down at Maxwell, but now I can't find that trannie anywhere. It's been 37 years since I wrote that book, so I hesitate to trust my memory on those colors. Anyway, I'm deep in another project right now, so I've no idea when I might be able to track down the transparency. Wish I could offer better evidence, either way...

Cheers,



Dana

Dana, did you mean this picture? It doesn´t help too much because also the dark blue star on the fuselage seems to be black here...but when I compare the rudder, especially its bottom part, with the black "T" on the tail, the rudder seems to have a different color. Especially when you increase the pic. But still hard to decide.

 

[Wurger]

If I may..
IMHO the pic is of the wrong balance of colours and therefore it is too blue. Even the shadow under the horizontal stabilizer and elevator got the same bluish tone. I guess it is a scan from an old magazine or book but not a copy from original negative. The difference in the black tone between the "T" letter and the entire rudder is because of the background and and its kind. The "T" was applied on the shiny silver plate causing a very good contrast between the black letter and the very light background. Contrary to that, the rudder is one large surface seen on different and quite dark background. What is more , the rudder was of the fabric skin that makes the difference in tone of colours applied there, especially if a paint was faded. Secondly, I would like make a focus on the colour of the serial on the fin.. usually it was yellow on the Olive Drab painted planes and black on those of the NMF. Here it looks like a pale green one. To sum up ... the printing process and later , the scanning , made the appearance of all the colours getting worse and wrong.

Below is a B&W shot of B-17 with similar markings but taken during a flight. Please note that the tone of the tail markings is the same although the top one seems to be a little bit lighter.

the pic source: 44-6379 | B-17 Bomber Flying Fortress – The Queen Of The Skies

 

[seesul]

Thank you Wojtek. Yes, this color pic didn´t help much but the more sources I read the more I believe the bands on the wings and tail control surfaces were blue. But darker than on the attached scheme, on my opinion. Although I used to believe for years it was black. Need to find another color (not colored) pics and that's why I opened a new thread here

 

[Wurger]

I see.

 

[Dana Bell]

Hi Seesul,

What I had was a 4x5 transparency of a color chart in XV AF records showing all of the tail markings used on 5th BW B-17s. I've been able to find a black-and-white printout of the microfilm page, but I still don't know where the tranny has gone.

I recently went through all of my unfiled stacks of material without finding the transparency, and I suspect I've loaned out the image with little chance of getting it back.

Cheers,



Dana

 

[seesul]

Hi Seesul,

What I had was a 4x5 transparency of a color chart in XV AF records showing all of the tail markings used on 5th BW B-17s. I've been able to find a black-and-white printout of the microfilm page, but I still don't know where the tranny has gone.

I recently went through all of my unfiled stacks of material without finding the transparency, and I suspect I've loaned out the image with little chance of getting it back.

Cheers,



Dana

Thank you very much Dana for your willingness and trying to help me! All is against my reseach. I´ve been involved in 2nd BG since 1994 I´d say and I´d never believe that one day I´ll be wondering of the color of the 2nd BG marking as I always thought it was black. Now to only confirm it.

 

[Airframes]

Hi Roman. I had a look at another version of the colour pic you posted, in the Steve Birdsall book "B-17 in Colour".
Judging by the slight difference in contrast, on my example, between the rudder and the star and bar, I'd say the rudder was black.
The original pic was most likely a Kodachrome transparency, and if a colour shift due to age, storage, reproduction etc was apparent, the blue areas would possibly exhibit a slight red/brown tinge, and black areas a slight blue tinge.
On my monitor screen, the example of the pic I have shows blue for the star and bar, albeit rather dark, and a distinct darker tone for the rudder, without any colour tinge, suggesting black, like the numbers and letters on the fin.

 

[fubar57]

Roman, you may already have these books but if not, I have your email address and can send them to you....

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The first is almost 600pgs and the second is almost 500pgs

 

[seesul]

Roman, you may already have these books but if not, I have your email address and can send them to you....

View attachment 555748

View attachment 555750
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The first is almost 600pgs and the second is almost 500pgs

Thank you Fubar, I have both of them in a printed version. But you're right, I never checked if markings are mentioned in these books and will do so today.

 

[seesul]

Hi Roman. I had a look at another version of the colour pic you posted, in the Steve Birdsall book "B-17 in Colour".
Judging by the slight difference in contrast, on my example, between the rudder and the star and bar, I'd say the rudder was black.
The original pic was most likely a Kodachrome transparency, and if a colour shift due to age, storage, reproduction etc was apparent, the blue areas would possibly exhibit a slight red/brown tinge, and black areas a slight blue tinge.
On my monitor screen, the example of the pic I have shows blue for the star and bar, albeit rather dark, and a distinct darker tone for the rudder, without any colour tinge, suggesting black, like the numbers and letters on the fin.

Thank you for your opinion Terry. It still makes me wonder where the autors took the info about the blue color from.

 

[Wurger]

It still makes me wonder where the autors took the info about the blue color from.

I'm afraid it can be the author's wishful thinking only.

 

[seesul]

I'm afraid it can be the author's wishful thinking only.

I don´t know Wojtek if Steve Birdsall bases his research also on wishes...I wish I was able to get in touch with him.

 

[Wurger]

That's the way to get it sorted out. Have you been trying to get in contact?

 

[seesul]

That's the way to get it sorted out. Have you been trying to get in contact?

I was trying to get some contact info but didn't find anything.

 

[Airframes]

You could try contacting via the publishers Roman, but given the date of the book (1986), they might not still have address details.

 

[Wurger]

I was trying to get some contact info but didn't find anything.

I see.

 

[seesul]

You could try contacting via the publishers Roman, but given the date of the book (1986), they might not still have address details.

But you're right Terry, I'll try it. It cost me nothing, only a time but that's normal in research.

 

[seesul]

Thank you Fubar, I have both of them in a printed version. But you're right, I never checked if markings are mentioned in these books and will do so today.

Nothing in there Fubar...

 

[seesul]

Since we had a 76th anniversary of the battle past weekend I used this oportunity and took a pic of the wing that a friend of mine has in his museum. The stripes were BLACK.
This part of the wing comes from B-17G, S/N 44-6369 , 2BG, 20BS