361st FG Ops sep/oct 1944, And 361st vs II (Sturm)./JG300.

[dachshund]

Hello.

I am new to posting in this forum, so please excuse if I am posting in the wrong section.

I am doing a build of two aircraft, for a modelling competition in a few months. I have read a lot of sources like Osprey's 'Mustang Aces of the Eighth Airforce',the Eagle Editions JG300 volume 2,"Aces and Wingmen" as well as lots of online searches, but I cannot get a good overview, so I would be very grateful if somebody could answer my question:

Did the 361st FG's P-51Ds indeed clash numerous times with II (Sturm)./ JG300s FW190s during September/ October 1944?

I am thinking of building one aircraft as a 361st FG P-51D (Possibly Urban Drew's E2-D), the other as a II(Sturm)./ JG300 FW190, the theme being that the two aircraft could possibly have met in the air during this period. I am aware that they met on September 27, 1944, but I was wondering if there is any evidence of other clashes between these two units, particularly on September 11, 1944 during mission 623?

As part of the historical background to my entry, I'd really love to have a good set of substantiating evidence for the two units meeting multiple times during this period.

As a secondary question, I read on the 361st FG web site that during September 1944 the 361st was "moved from VIII Fighter Command"and attached to the 2nd BG. What, exactly does this mean?

Thank you all for your help up front!

 

[drgondog]

There is a possibility that the 361st clashed with JG 300 (not necessarily Sturm) on 11 September... I will have to do some research to figure out where and when the two units were likely in the same area. The 355th had contact with JG 300 and JG 53 on 11 September and probably JG 300 (Sturm) on 20 June, 7 July, 3 August and 27 September, but on a lesser scale than the 361st on September 27.

The 65th FW comprised of the 4th, 56th, 355th, 361st and 479th FG were attached to 2nd BD (within the 8th AF) and later 2nd Air Division. The 2nd was comprised of all the B-24 daylight bomb groups.

Edit - just looked. Drew had no Fw 190 scores but he could have shot down a JG 300 Me 109 South of Gottingen on 11 September..

If you are looking for an interesting modeling subject for a probable clash with II JG 300 on 27 September, you might consider Henry Brown's WR-Z which had 26 of his final 28.5 scores on the fuselage and a uniques camo scheme.

 

[Erich]

yes the 361st fg was involved with the SturmFw's of JG 4 and JG 300 on 27 September 1944 this is confirmed

the SturmFw's operated on September 11, 12, 27th and 28th of September and October 6 and 7th. this should narrow the field down a bit further.

 

[dachshund]

Thank you both very much for that help!

Drgndog: I will look into WR-Z, I think I've seen a profile of that aircraft before, very nice color scheme. If I may ask, does the 361st being attached to the 2nd BD mean that they were operating exclusively with the 2nd BD when escorting, or did they escort B-17 equipped squadrons too?

Erich: Much appreciated for the confirmation of dates. I read the story of the 27th Sept 1944 in Osprey's Duel 'FW190 vs P-51', where if I recall correctly, Ernst Schroder clashed with a 361st FG P-51B at low level.According to the 361st's website history page, it looks like the 361st were involved on all the dates you mentioned, so thank you once again for your help with that.

 

[drgondog]

'Hound - when the 65th FW was attached to 2BD/AD they pretty much were tasked to support the B-24s.
Having said that Kepner, CO of 8th FC, could alter the exclusivity based on the target selection. If 1st and 3rd BD was going deep beyond the 2BD, as an example, then one or more of the 65th FW might be pulled to perform sweeps or other activities to support the main thrust.

 

[dachshund]

Thanks for that info!

That P-51 looks SWEET! I'm going to look into getting decals and a 'filletless' tail to do this version!

 

[Erich]

to throw an angle to Bill's first response for 11-9- 1944 the JG 300 unit flying with SturmFw's of JG 3 tired to intercept the 92nd bg. JG 300 and I./JG 76 were engaged by Mustangs. JG 3 Fw's evaded the Mustangs and attacked B-17's SW of Halle towards Eisleben and the rear attack was made and the JG 3 Fw's were given claims of 14 B-17's though in reality it was 9 that were shot down.

27 September 1944 Leo lamb crashed to his death from the 361st fg after colliding with a SturmFw from 8.Sturm/JG 4 piloted by Unteroffizier Hans Kalchschmid who was also killed.

September 12, 1944 the II.Sturm/JG 300 Fw's attacked the US 351st bg and shot down 7. IV. Sturm/JG 3 shot down 8 from the US 306th bg.
II.Sturm/JG 4 and it's protection gruppe III./JG 4 shot down 10 from the US 493rd bg.

 

[dachshund]

Thanks Erich. Your information is very much appreciated.

I'm working on the premise that the 361st FG and II (sturm)./ JG300 were in the same general area at the same general time ( ie: participated in the same air battle), as the basis of the link for my two model subjects. I read today that Drew's 109 kill on 11 Sept 1944 was at 11h45 8nm South of Gottingen. Does this narrow it down as to if II (sturm)./ JG300 could have been in the vicinity of the 361st FG ? I'm quite new to this, so I hope my questions aren't too much...

 

[Erich]

I find mention of the 4th, 352nd, 359th and 364th fg's in the JG 300 diary. I. and II.Sturm/JG 300 attacked B-17's and III. gruppe attacked B-24's.

 

[drgondog]

The Gottingen area engagements were in all likelihood part of the attacks against 2nd BD on way to Hannover/Merseburg. The track was above Frankfurt thence ne past Giessen toward Hannover. This is the area my father got two plus a probable. The 361st was probably part of that escort chain (I'll have to check) but Drew's credit ~ Gottingen suggests this as the case.

All JG 300 fighters shot down against the B-24s were 109s. I believe II./JG300 was over by Halle/Bernburg/Leipzig clashes way off to the east. The 4th FG was engaged around Halle for sure.

 

[Erich]

for III. Gruppe on 11 September 44 ~

only 2 109 losses places of action unknown no pilot names given. one 109 emergency landing after combat, pilot killed A/C destroyed 100 %

12 Fw 190 loses, 3 of them in the area of Eschwege, also Eisenach, Kirchhosbach, Weißenhorn, Ulfen/Bebra, Nordhausen, Lichtenau.

 

[drgondog]

Eagle Editions just put out Henry Brown's decals for 1/32 (IIRC)
http://www.largescaleplanes.com/news/news.php?nid=39

BTW - this is a fantastic scale model forum

 

[Thundergrunt]

Dash,.

Old thread I know but some more information. 361 FG was escorting of the 2nd Bomb Wing and the 445th Bomb Group on a Raid Kassel. On 27 Sep 44 when the over shot the target and ended up bombing Gottingen and then started to turn back west around Eisenach by Sturm 19os and 109s. A couple 361st P-51s ( one being Leo Lamb) at end of their limit turned to come back up on seeing and hearing the initial engagement and protect the B-24s which only 4 returned to base in England and 2 emergency landed in England 2 more went down in Occupied France and 1 in Belgium Of the 35 that went on the Kassel Raid. Lamb put up a fight to give the B-24s a chance and was killed as known colliding with a Sturm 190 during the fight. "Of the 238 men aboard the 25 bombers which went down in Germany, 115 were KIA or subsequently died of injuries. One was killed in the plane which crashed in Norfolk and one was killed in the crash in Belgium, for a total of 117. Another American killed that day was Lt. Leo Lamb of the 361st FG, who belatedly came to our rescue. Read this from a 445th Excerpt of A POW that mission Lt George Collar 445th BG/702 BS.

Also of note this was the same mission 5 aircrew were Murdered in the Village of Nentershausen.

 

[Erich]

Lamb collided with a Fw 190 from II.Sturm/JG 4.

 

[Frog]

Dash,.

Old thread I know but some more information. 361 FG was escorting of the 2nd Bomb Wing and the 445th Bomb Group on a Raid Kassel. On 27 Sep 44 when the over shot the target and ended up bombing Gottingen and then started to turn back west around Eisenach by Sturm 19os and 109s. A couple 361st P-51s ( one being Leo Lamb) at end of their limit turned to come back up on seeing and hearing the initial engagement and protect the B-24s which only 4 returned to base in England and 2 emergency landed in England 2 more went down in Occupied France and 1 in Belgium Of the 35 that went on the Kassel Raid. Lamb put up a fight to give the B-24s a chance and was killed as known colliding with a Sturm 190 during the fight. "Of the 238 men aboard the 25 bombers which went down in Germany, 115 were KIA or subsequently died of injuries. One was killed in the plane which crashed in Norfolk and one was killed in the crash in Belgium, for a total of 117. Another American killed that day was Lt. Leo Lamb of the 361st FG, who belatedly came to our rescue. Read this from a 445th Excerpt of A POW that mission Lt George Collar 445th BG/702 BS.

Also of note this was the same mission 5 aircrew were Murdered in the Village of Nentershausen.

Could this guy be one of the perpetrators ?