8th Air Force use of Mosquitoes

davebender said:

Like most new aircraft designs, Mosquito prototypes had significant problems which required at least a year to fix. Meanwhile A-20s were already in production and in combat (with the French Air Force). So I cannot imagine the Mosquito being produced ILO the A-20.

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Did they? The second prototype, W4051, went into active service as a PR aircraft. W4051's fuselage was used to replace W4050's damaged fuselage. W4051 subsequently used a production fuselage, and first flew in June 1941, 7 months after the prototype first flew. W4051 flew operationally in September 1941.

The bomber version flew operationally in May 1942 - the delay probably because the first batch of Mosquitoes ordered were PRIs.

gjs238 said:

P-38's were used to bomb Ploesti.
Were they ever used elsewhere in such a role?

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I believe so. Though I couldn't tell you where.

There was evena version of teh P-38 with a bomb aimer's position.

Initial plans for the Mosquito were for a bomb load of four 250lb bombs (same as as Battle or Blenheim) which probably would not have interested the USAAC planners at all.

Please compare the abilities of a Mosquito as it existed in 1940-41 to the abilities of an A-20 as it existed in 1940-41 to understand decisions. Comparing the abilities of a plane that existed in 1943-44 and asking why didn't they "just" start building them 2-3 years earlier doesn't really get us anywhere.

Maybe this will work to provide a plausible background.

July 26, 1941.
President FDR orders a massive American military expansion in the Philippines. A big stick to back up diplomatic efforts vs Japan. Centerpiece of the expansion are four B-17 heavy bombardment groups plus Submarine Squadron 20 equipped with 29 modern long range submarines.

19th (H) Bombardment Group was in the Philippines during December 1941. 7th (H) Bombardment Group was enroute aboard Convoy 4002. The other two heavy bomber groups would have to wait until additional B-17Es were produced. A total of 35 B-17s were in the Philippines to counter the December 1941 Japanese invasions. Propaganda bulletins aside, they failed miserably at sinking IJA troop transports.

Point of Departure.
The U.S.A.A.F. still plans to send four B-17 heavy bomber groups to the Philippines. However since there aren't enough B-17s available during 1941 one of the groups will initially be equipped with A-20s. This group will convert to B-17s during 1942 and their A-20s will be handed over to the Philippine Army Air Corps.

December 8, 1941 (Philippine time).
The U.S. has plenty of A-20s during 1941. 7th (Light) Bombardment Group and their A-20s depart San Francisco during September 1941, arriving in Manila during October 1941. They have ample time to become combat ready and visit a few local strip clubs before the Japanese attack.

Like the B-17s, about half of the A-20s will survive long enough for employment against Japanese troop transports. Unlike high altitude B-17s, low altitude A-20s prove somewhat effective. Not enough to change results for the overall battle. However the U.S.A.A.F. have a chance to compare B-17s vs A-20s operating under identical combat conditions.

January 1942.
Combat results from the Philippines cause a reevaluation among U.S.A.A.F. generals. B-17 and B-24 heavy bomber programs will continue. However a complementary light bomber program will be initiated to conduct strategic bombing from low level. They like the A-20 but it lacks range. So the search is on for a long range light bomber. The Mosquito will compete against the B-25, B-26, A-26 prototype and anyone else who wants to enter the competition.

If the R-2600 was powering the A-20 in this timeline, what about a R-2600 powered fighter?

I am not sure about your time line but by Jan 1942 there are 184 B-25s already delivered and several thousand more are already contracted for. A new factory is being set up in Kansas City for B-25 Production and in fact the first production B-25s from this factroy roll out the door in Feb 1942.
The B-26 is also already in production and has hundreds of planes contracted for.

Both planes go back to a design specification issued in March of 1939.

Any competition done in Jan of 1942 is going to result in aircraft that won't be available until 1944-45.

While they were both canceled the NA XB-28 and Martin XB-33 were intended to be replacements for the existing B-25/B-26 and both were started well before Jan of 1942.

gjs238 said:

If the R-2600 was powering the A-20 in this timeline, what about a R-2600 powered fighter?

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Haven't we been over that one enough

Good bomber engine, lousy fighter engine. Power to drag ratio at altitude (over 11,00-14,000ft) means it won't outperform an Allison powered airplane.

I don't think it was all about bombs on target otherwise the use of light/medium bombers would have been far greater than their use, in fact the heavy bomber would have taken a back-seat to any aerial bombardment of Europe. Of course, I agree with the first part of your post, there's no denying that I Mosquito could operate under the same conditions as the American bomber formations (and this was a key point of mine). Alternatively I did state that the Mosquito could not have operated in the method of the British night-bombers who were arriving over target individually simply because in the day, yes, the Germans would be waiting. You are correct, the Luftwaffe had advance warning of the U.S. bomber streams forming up over Great Britain but those formations were not easy targets - especially when escorted. A gaggle of Mosquitos arriving every now and then would be easy pickings, as most likely the escort task would be too difficult to co-ordinate and lead to many errors and unprotected bombers.

It would be a nice idea to see the attacks coming in every time the enemy fighters were rearming and refuelling but it wouldn't work out that way, and when caught by the fighters Mosquitos were vulnerable. Operation Jericho is a good example of both sides of the coin; yes, the target was hit with absolute and fantastic precision but three Mosquitos were lost because they were the last there and the Luftwaffe had arrived. Now up the scale to the proposal here, we want 80 hits on Schweinfurt, that's still a considerable amount of Mosquitos ... each striking their target individually, depending on payload...what? 20, 30, 40 planes unescorted... arriving in formation is the only way they can ensure they arrive together, but that's suicide. So we attack in groups of three or four, the Germans scramble for the first group...they are missed, then the second group appears maybe we're lucky the fighters are down refueling but then again maybe the Germans aren't stupid and see that all these planes spotted are most likely heading for the same place so they're waiting. And unlike a bomber formation with escort, this lot can't fire back.

Plus the fact, precision isn't always key, it's well recognised that sometimes laying waste to an area can have a very nice affect on the countryside... bring the enemy into the air and divert roughly 10,000 heavy AA guns to defend against high flying bombers. Strategic bombardment cannot be achieved by light/medium bombers, not in those days.

Any competition done in Jan of 1942 is going to result in aircraft that won't be available until 1944-45.

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Only if you start from scratch.

If I was running the U.S. Army Air Force my first thought would be to increase the range of the existing A-20. Perhaps they can stretch the fuselage a bit for additional fuel space like Germany did with the Ju-88H. If that won't work then look at ways to increase B-25 and B-26 low level speed. How much speed could you gain by eliminating all machinegun positions except the tail gun? The A-26 is probably the best long term solution. How soon could it enter service if the U.S.A.A.F. gave it the same priority as the B-29 heavy bomber?

I think the Mosquito is a very long shot for production reasons if nothing else. It's made of wood so you need an entirely new production facility. The A-26 could probably enter service in large numbers at least as fast as an American copy of the Mosquito.

You are not going to get much by playing with existing airframes. The A-20 is a fairly small airplane. It already has a high take-off and landing speed. Those R-2600 engines have more drag than the Merlins on the Mosquito and they suck more fuel.

Getting rid of turrets and waist guns doesn't really buy much either. See the Avro Lancastrian as an example. An increase of 15-20mph perhaps? Mosquito was fast because of it's small fuselage, keeping a fat/empty fuselage and just getting rid of a few lumps and bumps is not going to turn a B-25/B-26 into a speedster. Lockheed Vegas had some success in the Pacific at low level where they could do around 300mph and out run some Japanese fighters but against the faster German planes they would have been in trouble.

The question is wither the "light/medium"bombers can carry the tonnage wanted. While Mosquito did wind up carrying a 4,000lb bomb load it did not do so on operations until late Feb of 1944. A bit late to base the Strategic bombing campaign on.

plan_D said:

three Mosquitos were lost because they were the last there and the Luftwaffe had arrived.

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That is incorrect. Only Pickard's Mosquito was lost to fighters, one other was shot down by flak. Another may have been shot up by fighters but able to return. It was another 487 Sqn machine, and they were the first there.

Then it probably comes down to Mosquito vs A-26. Either way the program won't bear fruit prior to 1944.

davebender said:

Then it probably comes down to Mosquito vs A-26. Either way the program won't bear fruit prior to 1944.

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The first Mosquito XX came off the line in Malton on June 1943. This was less than a year after the decision to build Mossies in Canada. Surely if the humongous Willowrun plant could be built in a year and the little plant in Malton could be producing Mossies in less than a year, I see no reason why American produced Mossies could not have been rolling out a factory doors in large numbers at about the same time. Note, the Canadian and American production was being discussed at the same time.

mhuxt said:

That is incorrect. Only Pickard's Mosquito was lost to fighters, one other was shot down by flak. Another may have been shot up by fighters but able to return. It was another 487 Sqn machine, and they were the first there.

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And Pickard was only lost as he hung around to film the prisoners escaping. And, IIRC, he turned and fought the enemy fighter, instead of running for home.

The Jericho raid also had Typhoon escort fighters.

Shortround6 said:

Initial plans for the Mosquito were for a bomb load of four 250lb bombs (same as as Battle or Blenheim) which probably would not have interested the USAAC planners at all.

Please compare the abilities of a Mosquito as it existed in 1940-41 to the abilities of an A-20 as it existed in 1940-41 to understand decisions. Comparing the abilities of a plane that existed in 1943-44 and asking why didn't they "just" start building them 2-3 years earlier doesn't really get us anywhere.

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The 4 x 250lb bomb load was superseded by the 4 x 500lb load before any bomber Mosquitoes became operational. So, May 1942 you have a fast bomber with a 2000lb load.

wuzak said:

And Pickard was only lost as he hung around to film the prisoners escaping.

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No, the filming was undertaken by an FPU Mossie which returned unharmed.

I've never read that he turned to fight the 190s, though there's a new book out which analyses the raid. IIRC the author believes Pickard was jumped before the raid got underway, must get myself a copy.

mhuxt said:

No, the filming was undertaken by an FPU Mossie which returned unharmed.

I've never read that he turned to fight the 190s, though there's a new book out which analyses the raid. IIRC the author believes Pickard was jumped before the raid got underway, must get myself a copy.

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I am quite sure that he was shot down after the raid.

Pickard orbited the prison at 500 ft (150 m) watching prisoners escape. Having seen that the operation had been successful, he signalled No. 21 Squadron's Mosquitos to return home. As he turned for home, he was attacked by a Focke-Wulf Fw 190 fighter from Jagdgeschwader 26. Its tail severed, Pickard's Mosquito crashed, killing Pickard and his navigator, Flight-Lieutenant Alan Broadley. In all, three Mosquitos and two Typhoons were lost in the raid; a total of three aircrew were killed and three were captured.

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Operation Jericho - Wiki

I thought Pickard's navigator had a camera as well. But you are correct, it seems he didn't fight the Fw190s.

Shortround6 said:

The question is wither the "light/medium"bombers can carry the tonnage wanted. While Mosquito did wind up carrying a 4,000lb bomb load it did not do so on operations until late Feb of 1944. A bit late to base the Strategic bombing campaign on.

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Surely the question is "can the light/medium bombers inflict the required damage"?

btw, Mosquito could carry 3000lb from 1943 (4 x 500lb in bomb bay + 2 x 500lb on wing).

However, with the 2000lb bomb load I would figure the Mosquito would need to be 2 - 3 times more accurate than the 8th AF B-17s. That is, would need 40-60% of their bombs to fall within 1000ft of the aiming point.

wuzak said:

I am quite sure that he was shot down after the raid.

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Yes, that certainly seems to be the general view. Mayer's claim is listed as having been at 12.05, whereas the 464 Sqn craft apparently went in a minute later. So there's not much in it, will look forward to reading what Ducellier has to say, apparently the book is due this September.

There is a pdf excerpt of one section posted here:

http://www.redkitebooks.co.uk/pdfs/amienssamplechapter.pdf