A massive rationalization at Messerschmitt post Battle of Britain?

[tomo pauk]

A better job of fairing the cowl MG 131s, then put a MG 131 inside each wing.
Not great but about twice the firepower of a Ki 43 or about equal to a Ki 44 or many Ki 61s.

AND THEN you get factor in the MG 151/20.

4 of the weaker HMGs + one cannon, or 3 cannons? I'd pick 3 cannons.
Saying that something has much better firepower than the Ki-43 is a damning with a faint praise.

Or if you want, hang a single MG 151/20 under the fuselage
Granted you need the electric primed ammo.

Frontal area is similar to two gondolas? Plus it takes the spot for the drop tank.

 

[Shortround6]

4 of the weaker HMGs + one cannon, or 3 cannons? I'd pick 3 cannons.
Saying that something has much better firepower than the Ki-43 is a damning with a faint praise.



Frontal area is similar to two gondolas? Plus it takes the spot for the drop tank.

MG 131 weighed about 17kg
MG FFM weighed about 25-28kg
MG 121/20 weighed about 25-28kg

Ammo may make or break it.

With the 109 the power did not stay constant.
The opposition did not stay constant.
What was useable in late 1942/early 1943 was behind the times in spring of 1944.

A FW 190 was a much better bomber buster with four MG 151/20 cannon.

A 109 is too small to carry the the needed guns without loss of performance.

A 109 replacement should also have a longer endurance even if it was just 30 minutes or so (widen it's intercept radius around it's base by around 100km without drop tanks?)

 

[tomo pauk]

MG 131 weighed about 17kg
MG FFM weighed about 25-28kg
MG 121/20 weighed about 25-28kg

Ammo may make or break it.

I guess you mean MG 151/20? It was at 42-43 kg?

With the 109 the power did not stay constant.
The opposition did not stay constant.
What was useable in late 1942/early 1943 was behind the times in spring of 1944.

Bf 109 will certainly need both some nip & tuck (to lower the drag) and a better luck with available engines - talk improvement of the timetable by at least 6 months vs. what was in case historically? Easier said than done for the DB 605s?

A FW 190 was a much better bomber buster with four MG 151/20 cannon.

A 109 is too small to carry the the needed guns without loss of performance.

A 109 replacement should also have a longer endurance even if it was just 30 minutes or so (widen it's intercept radius around it's base by around 100km without drop tanks?)

A 109 replacement needs to have, 1st and foremost, a significant performance jump if it is to survive the WAllied onslaught at the West. Talk 450 mph at least, more will be nice. For winter of 1943/44, it will mean that it is powered by jet engine.
A Bf 109 itself needs to have 'smarter' gun battery, that uses aircraft strong points. One of them is ability to have a powerful motor-cannon. Cannon that can still fit, with a better bang than the MG 151/20, and with a decent MV. Motor-cannons have a reasonable drag penalty, for a simple fact that there is just one installed.

Fw 190 was lower performing above 20000 ft than the Bf 109 from the same time. It needed a heart surgery (= engine type swap) in order to be competitive vs. the Allied best from Autumn of 1943 on.

 

[Shortround6]

For a good part of 1943 the German fighters could attack the bombers without much interference from fighters, as the year went on the Escort fighters started to push them back.

The Bomber busters of 1942/first 1/2 of 1943 can be much different than the bomber busters of the spring of 1944.

The Germans needed a higher rate of fire from the bomber busters.
They needed to get enough shells into the air in a limited amount of time to make sure they hit the bomber enough times.
Higher MV helps hit the target but the improvement may not be enough. The MK 108 was an enormous change in that they figured that 3 hits, on average, could take down a 4 engine bomber. With the 20mm guns they needed 18-20 hits.
So a single MK 108 needed about 5-6 20mm cannon to equal it. Granted the 20mm MG 151 fired a bit faster (not a lot).
Germans also calculated at one point that the "average" German pilots was only getting about 2% of shells on the target so a 4 gun fighter needed about 1000 shells to take down a bomber. And the fighters simply couldn't carry that ammo load. (or your figured 2-3 fighters per intercept).

These are hypotheticals with unlimited firing time. Obviously good pilots could do much better, pilots right out of school are going to fire a lot of ammo without hitting much.
During the time of the 109Fs and the early 109G gunboats they were still working out the math.

A slightly higher velocity 30mm cannon may make it easier to hit but if the gun has a slower rate of fire it may cancel out. If a MK 103 has got a rate of fire about 2/3rd that of the MK 108 it is going to fire fewer shells per firing pass, it can open fire from a longer distance but that depends on on firing angle.
With two MK 108s weighing less than a single MK 103 the rate of fire is certainly on the side of of the MK 108.

 

[tomo pauk]

For a good part of 1943 the German fighters could attack the bombers without much interference from fighters, as the year went on the Escort fighters started to push them back.

The Bomber busters of 1942/first 1/2 of 1943 can be much different than the bomber busters of the spring of 1944.

The Germans needed a higher rate of fire from the bomber busters.
They needed to get enough shells into the air in a limited amount of time to make sure they hit the bomber enough times.
Higher MV helps hit the target but the improvement may not be enough. The MK 108 was an enormous change in that they figured that 3 hits, on average, could take down a 4 engine bomber. With the 20mm guns they needed 18-20 hits.
So a single MK 108 needed about 5-6 20mm cannon to equal it. Granted the 20mm MG 151 fired a bit faster (not a lot).
Germans also calculated at one point that the "average" German pilots was only getting about 2% of shells on the target so a 4 gun fighter needed about 1000 shells to take down a bomber. And the fighters simply couldn't carry that ammo load. (or your figured 2-3 fighters per intercept).

Good points.
The LW math was that it is needed 5 of 30mm shells to down a big bomber, not 3; indeed 20 hits with 20mm cannons. But still, the math greatly favors the 30mm, especially in the case of the Bf 109 that can carry a limited number of cannons.
(IIRC the LW was of opinion that it takes 75 hits of 15mm cannon to kill a big bomber...)

These are hypotheticals with unlimited firing time. Obviously good pilots could do much better, pilots right out of school are going to fire a lot of ammo without hitting much.
During the time of the 109Fs and the early 109G gunboats they were still working out the math.

Seems like LW was already by 1942 of the opinion that one 20mm is not enough, for the combat in the MTO and Eastern front. Thus an early push for the gondolas.

A slightly higher velocity 30mm cannon may make it easier to hit but if the gun has a slower rate of fire it may cancel out. If a MK 103 has got a rate of fire about 2/3rd that of the MK 108 it is going to fire fewer shells per firing pass, it can open fire from a longer distance but that depends on on firing angle.
With two MK 108s weighing less than a single MK 103 the rate of fire is certainly on the side of of the MK 108.

Trade-offs are to be expected.
The Bf 109 was limited in how many weapons, and of what size and power it can carry. The Bf 109 will carry two MK 108s in the gondolas, those make a notable drag penalty. Not a good thing on a fighter already on the backfoot speed-wise.
A mid-size 30mm cannon (100 kg is a nice round number) that fires at 500+ rd/min and at 700 m/s should enable that more round land on the moving target, with a minimum drag penalty.

 

[wiking85]

The 1st quoted sentence clashes with 3rd sentence wrt. Me 262. Me 262 was ready, engine production was not.

Not really unless you stretch to think so. Keep the older aircraft as priority until you get to the point the engines are about ready to enter production and then start up Me262 production.

Please note that 1-engined fighter needs 1/2 of engines vs. what will a 2-engined fighter need.

Sure, but that doesn't make a 1 engine jet fighter viable at the time given the reliability issues of the engines available and thrust power. Or that the Me163 was even viable as a jet fighter.

As about the 109 and 110 - they more or less did what you suggest, it was not working. Allies were both making more fighters and a lot of their fighter were much better types than it was a Bf 109 or 110. Even if we allow for some nip & tuck that can gain 10-15 mph in 1943-44.

No they did not. They phased in the Me210 and cancelled the Bf110 for 6 months as well as disrupted Me109 production in favor of the Me210 only to go back on plans and cost themselves about 2000 aircraft in the crucial 1941-42 period. That was the inflection point of the air war when keeping production rates high to make sure forces in the field had enough mattered. Maximizing output in 1944 was too late of course, but in 1941 the Germans still had relative parity and exception kill rates, so having enough fighters to go around, especially during the night bombing offensive, could have resulted in substantially higher kill rates that would have helped crippled British and Soviet airpower through casualties. The shortage of night fighter was especially acute in 1941-42 and that was when having enough to hobble Bomber Command as well as ensure there were enough so that more night fighter crews could be trained and gain experience would have really be possible.

In the East they needed all the Me109s they could possibly get.

 

[ddwhitney]

I've seen very little to "document" my theory, but by 1942 the Eastern Front was a concern for every man living and working in Germany. A real personal threat!
Meanwhile, opposing the Nazi regime was exceptionally dangerous.
What better personal strategy could there be than to support the "war effort" by offering up Wonder Weapons, and projects claiming to better the "enemy" and could be deemed essential to the German war effort. All the while recognizing that any effort put into these "advanced" programs was energy unlikely to actually contribute to the Nazis winning the war.
Even low level technicians, engineers and workers could be deemed "essential" to a project, and hence exempt from conscription.

 

[tomo pauk]

Not really unless you stretch to think so. Keep the older aircraft as priority until you get to the point the engines are about ready to enter production and then start up Me262 production.

See here:

The Me262 was held up due to the engines, not the airframe.

<snip>

Maximize output of improved Me110s and Me109s with production resources until the 262 is ready.

Me 262 was ready, however the engines were not available.

Sure, but that doesn't make a 1 engine jet fighter viable at the time given the reliability issues of the engines available and thrust power. Or that the Me163 was even viable as a jet fighter.

Here we disagree - I still claim that not going with an 1-engined fighter already by 1943 was a mistake for the Luftwaffe.

In the East they needed all the Me109s they could possibly get.

All good, the Bf 109 was very good in the East, and in general it was a good/excellent fighter.

No they did not. They phased in the Me210 and cancelled the Bf110 for 6 months as well as disrupted Me109 production in favor of the Me210 only to go back on plans and cost themselves about 2000 aircraft in the crucial 1941-42 period. That was the inflection point of the air war when keeping production rates high to make sure forces in the field had enough mattered. Maximizing output in 1944 was too late of course, but in 1941 the Germans still had relative parity and exception kill rates, so having enough fighters to go around, especially during the night bombing offensive, could have resulted in substantially higher kill rates that would have helped crippled British and Soviet airpower through casualties. The shortage of night fighter was especially acute in 1941-42 and that was when having enough to hobble Bomber Command as well as ensure there were enough so that more night fighter crews could be trained and gain experience would have really be possible.

They did not what?
Having more of the night fighters would've been a bigger hurdle to the Allies. German problem was that they were already unable to provide enough of skilled pilots for the fighters they had, and that by 1942, let alone in 1943 the fighter force they had were still unable to achieve air superiority against the West. Fuel situation was also not very conductive for the significantly increased fighters' numbers.
They needed an over-performer, and even an improved Bf 109 could not do it. A jet-powered fighter just might do it, provided they can be had in many hundreds, and in many thousands by 1944.

 

[wiking85]

I've seen very little to "document" my theory, but by 1942 the Eastern Front was a concern for every man living and working in Germany. A real personal threat!
Meanwhile, opposing the Nazi regime was exceptionally dangerous.
What better personal strategy could there be than to support the "war effort" by offering up Wonder Weapons, and projects claiming to better the "enemy" and could be deemed essential to the German war effort. All the while recognizing that any effort put into these "advanced" programs was energy unlikely to actually contribute to the Nazis winning the war.
Even low level technicians, engineers and workers could be deemed "essential" to a project, and hence exempt from conscription.

There were several top engineers that have said exactly that. Heisenberg in fact said he was keeping men working on nuclear projects that had no hope of being ready in time to keep them off the frontlines.

See here:

Me 262 was ready, however the engines were not available.

I got your logic, just think it is based on semantics.

Here we disagree - I still claim that not going with an 1-engined fighter already by 1943 was a mistake for the Luftwaffe.

With what ready and available jet engine? And what sort of performance would it have had with the power that they could even produce in 1944?

All good, the Bf 109 was very good in the East, and in general it was a good/excellent fighter.

They did not what?
Having more of the night fighters would've been a bigger hurdle to the Allies. German problem was that they were already unable to provide enough of skilled pilots for the fighters they had, and that by 1942, let alone in 1943 the fighter force they had were still unable to achieve air superiority against the West. Fuel situation was also not very conductive for the significantly increased fighters' numbers.
They needed an over-performer, and even an improved Bf 109 could not do it. A jet-powered fighter just might do it, provided they can be had in many hundreds, and in many thousands by 1944.

You claimed they did as I suggested more or less. I'm saying no they did not do that and explained why.
I have a very detailed book by a participant about the night fighter war and he states that the problem in 1941-42 was lack of equipment, not pilots. When I get home later today I'll post the title and link to it. It's from the 1970s.
Air superiority against the west wasn't necessary for the attritional strategic air war at night, they needed to inflict unsustainable losses on BC and the lack of equipment prevented them from doing so, both by obviously lacking weapons in the air and by having enough equipment in the quieter period of the war when pilots could have gained the experience they needed to become more skilled night fighter pilots; the point was made that the best night fighter pilots later in the war all honed their skills in 1941-42, while the later additions were never able to catch up in skills, mainly because they were constantly unable to get the necessary equipment to learn how to do their jobs effectively. This led to desperation moves like the 'Wilde Sau' tactics and using Me109s as night fighters. That incidentally killed more German pilots than Allied ones.
The fuel situation in 1941-42 was not the problem and in fact really only became a major limiting factor in 1944 with the bombing of Luftwaffe fuel production facilities.

In terms of daylight fighters I agree with you, but the single jet engine fighter was not the way to go and wouldn't have been viable anyway due to lack of engines until 1944, not that the single engines had enough performance to make a single engine fighter what you claim they needed.

 

[tomo pauk]

With what ready and available jet engine? And what sort of performance would it have had with the power that they could even produce in 1944?

In terms of daylight fighters I agree with you, but the single jet engine fighter was not the way to go and wouldn't have been viable anyway due to lack of engines until 1944, not that the single engines had enough performance to make a single engine fighter what you claim they needed.

Jumo 004 can be a choice, unless some HeS engines are given a hand by RLM.
The Soviet copy of the Jumo 004 - RD-10 - with thrust of 900 kg (1980 lbf, ie. same as the Jumo 004) propelled the Yak-15 to 780+ km/h per Russian-language Wikipedia. Even if we shave 20-30 km/h from that figure on account of heavier guns' firepower, it is still a big leap in performance vs. the majority of fighters the Luftwaffe was using to battle the WAllies from second half of 1943 on.

 

[wiking85]

Jumo 004 can be a choice, unless some HeS engines are given a hand by RLM.

Which were even lower powered, though they were lighter.

Heinkel HeS 3 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Although successful, the engine had too little thrust to be really useful, and work started on the more powerful Heinkel HeS 8 as their first production design.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_HeS_

The subsequent one was not ready before the Jumo and still required 2 engines for the fighter it was supposed to be for.

The Soviet copy of the Jumo 004 - RD-10 - with thrust of 900 kg (1980 lbf, ie. same as the Jumo 004) propelled the Yak-15 to 780+ km/h per Russian-language Wikipedia. Even if we shave 20-30 km/h from that figure on account of heavier guns' firepower, it is still a big leap in performance vs. the majority of fighters the Luftwaffe was using to battle the WAllies from second half of 1943 on

First of all that assumes Soviet data is accurate and the model tested was anything more than an unarmed, unarmored prototype. Even if it was it was 400kg lighter empty than an Me109 G-6, so would have been utterly shredded by bomber box defensive fire due to the likely lack of armor to get so light. Also the range was seriously limited too. Not only that, but the muzzle velocity of the cannons would have required it getting very close, basically as close as the MK108, but at 23mm the cannons wouldn't have had enough ammo to down a B-17 (60 RPG) unless emptying all ammo on one and hitting with everything.

There is a reason that nothing less than the Me262 would suffice for bomber killing and in terms of performance for fighting combat it wouldn't have really improved anywhere near enough for dog fighting.

 

[tomo pauk]

Which were even lower powered, though they were lighter.

Some were lower powered, some were not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_HeS_ The subsequent one was not ready before the Jumo and still required 2 engines for the fighter it was supposed to be for.

Bad link.

First of all that assumes Soviet data is accurate and the model tested was anything more than an unarmed, unarmored prototype. Even if it was it was 400kg lighter empty than an Me109 G-6, so would have been utterly shredded by bomber box defensive fire due to the likely lack of armor to get so light. Also the range was seriously limited too. Not only that, but the muzzle velocity of the cannons would have required it getting very close, basically as close as the MK108, but at 23mm the cannons wouldn't have had enough ammo to down a B-17 (60 RPG) unless emptying all ammo on one and hitting with everything.

Haven't I already make an allowance for heavier guns' battery?

Even if we shave 20-30 km/h from that figure on account of heavier guns' firepower

The bomber box was not as much of a problem as it were the escort fighters.

There is a reason that nothing less than the Me262 would suffice for bomber killing and in terms of performance for fighting combat it wouldn't have really improved anywhere near enough for dog fighting.

There is also a reason for Me 262 production to be as it was: totally unable to provide the numbers for the needs of Luftwaffe. Reason being the engine production was insufficient for each of those requiring two engines.

 

[Shortround6]

Two problems that I can see with the single engine jet.

1. endurance, this is separate from range. Maybe I did the math wrong but the Yak appears to have an endurance of about 40 minutes. Now it can fly around 300 miles in that 40 minutes but the early jet engines didn't throttle down well at all and they usually got worse fuel consumption (lbs of thrust per pound of fuel/hour) at low power settings.
You have to time the interceptions pretty well.
2. Armament. Will two 20mm MG 151 guns do the job or do you need two MK 108 guns?

The two ML 108s may not a be a deal breaker but the MK 108s area bout 50% heavier than the Russian 23mm guns and the ammo is a lot heavier (175gram Shell vs 330gram shell.) complete cartridge is closer.
Maybe not a big difference in performance ?

 

[wiking85]

Some were lower powered, some were not.

Bad link.

Worked for me. It is for the HeS 03 if you want to google it

Haven't I already make an allowance for heavier guns' battery?

Then it gets into piston engine fighter territory with much lower weight, loiter time, armor, and armament. AKA pointless.

The bomber box was not as much of a problem as it were the escort fighters.

I would read some Me 262 fighter memoirs, they say the bomber boxes were the biggest issues. Escort fighters were more a problem for when taking off or landing, which your fighter would not be able to counter either.

There is also a reason for Me 262 production to be as it was: totally unable to provide the numbers for the needs of Luftwaffe. Reason being the engine production was insufficient for each of those requiring two engines.

Because of myriad issues which would impact your proposed fighter as well.

 

[ThomasP]

This information may not be correct (I ran across it a long time ago).

The only reason the bomber box formations were the "biggest issues" for the Me262 is that the Me262 had to attack the bombers. Once in the air at altitude, until the Me262 attacked the bombers they were almost immune from attack. But at best the bombers accounted for only ~10% of the Me262s shot down, Allied fighters in air-air combat maneuvering accounted for less than 10% (I think the official number is ~3% but not sure), with the remaining 80%+ shot down while at low altitude trying to take-off/land/return to base, or destroyed on ground (not necessarily in that order).

 

[tomo pauk]

Two problems that I can see with the single engine jet.

1. endurance, this is separate from range. Maybe I did the math wrong but the Yak appears to have an endurance of about 40 minutes. Now it can fly around 300 miles in that 40 minutes but the early jet engines didn't throttle down well at all and they usually got worse fuel consumption (lbs of thrust per pound of fuel/hour) at low power settings.
You have to time the interceptions pretty well.
2. Armament. Will two 20mm MG 151 guns do the job or do you need two MK 108 guns?

The two ML 108s may not a be a deal breaker but the MK 108s area bout 50% heavier than the Russian 23mm guns and the ammo is a lot heavier (175gram Shell vs 330gram shell.) complete cartridge is closer.
Maybe not a big difference in performance ?

1. I've used the Yak-15 as an example to show that an 1-engined fighter has a worthy performance advantage over what Luftwaffe was flying from late 1943 on. A bespoke 1-engined jet fighter can have enough of fuel to be useful West from Berlin (already the tiny He 162 carried ~500L of fuel IIRC), and having drop tank(s) is no rocket science.
2. Two MK 108 is a 'natural' choice by late 1944 for the West IMO.

Worked for me. It is for the HeS 03 if you want to google it

I've gotten the one for the HeS 03. Another like does not work.

Then it gets into piston engine fighter territory with much lower weight, loiter time, armor, and armament. AKA pointless.

750+- km/h was not piston engine fighter territory, and certainly not for German piston-engined fighters of the era.

I would read some Me 262 fighter memoirs, they say the bomber boxes were the biggest issues. Escort fighters were more a problem for when taking off or landing, which your fighter would not be able to counter either.

I would certainly not object what books you intend to read.
An expensive loss, like the Me 262 was that was caught when flying at low speed or when on the ground, was not playing into the Luftwaffe's favor.

 

[Dimlee]

First of all that assumes Soviet data is accurate and the model tested was anything more than an unarmed, unarmored prototype.

Yak-15 prototype achieved 770 km/h at ground level and 800 km/h at 5,000 m.
Source: Яковлев Як-15