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Fully concur and agree that the PH raid wasn't really necessary to achieve what the Japanese needed to survive as an Empire, but they had to take and hold the Dutch East Indies and Malaya , and to do this they had to take Singapore, Hong Kong and the Philippines. If they had restricted their expansion efforts to this, they'd have the power to blockade Australia and NZ and then possibly defeat the aged USN counterattacking fleet in the one Armageddon naval battle the Japanese Navy dreamed of.Cutting off Australia by naval blockade was feasible in 1942. Less so in 1943. Had the full might of Japanese naval power been at Coral Sea or Guadalcanal instead of been sunk at Midway then different story.
The proposal of the thread is what could the IJN have done better.Of course not, and not considering so much going after the 6 carriers, but there's no way that 2 BBs and 2 heavy cruisers are going to be allowed to come into gunnery range (within sight of the observation posts on Diamond Head) and start lobbing shells into Pearl Harbor and Honolulu. Every Coast Artillery gun that can range the targets will engage and every aircraft remaining that can fly, shoot or drop any ordnance will be sent out, even if its known it may be their last mission. Ditto for the many surviving mission capable cruisers, destroyers, PT boats and subs. Maybe the USN would discover, much earlier and without doubt, that their MK 13 and 14 torpedoes were faulty, and it wouldn't take until 1943 to fix that.
I've read that it was tracking the IJN aircraft back out, but that no one up the chain asked to see the data.The Opana Point radar which tracked the Japanese attack incoming could have been used to track the aircraft back out,
One aspect of warfare is controlling the field of battle after the Battle.
The IJN did a bombing and then ran like beehatches at Pearl Harbour.
If you going to do something you either do it or don't do it.
Considering the kicking the Japanese got from the Soviets at Khalkhin Gol it was not going to happen plus the region simply lacked the infrastructure for a prolonged campaign. It is very unlikely that the Japanese would have had any significant successes against the Soviet Union if they had attacked and in all liklihood any attack woudn't have been enough to swing the decison in the west with Germany it may have made it more difficult for the Soviets, but Germany never had a realistic chance of beating the Soviets and even if Moscow fell the Soviets would have kept fighting, It should also be noted that the Soviet campaign in 1945 against Japan is probably the closest to a perfect military campaign in History and is not studied anywhere near enough in the West. In 11 days the Soviets marched over 1000 miles and took 600,000 Japanese POWsA long post but here we go.
Japan should have attacked USSR not USA. I would have gone for invading Siberia especially in 1941 after Barbarossa had kicked off.
This makes logical sense as the Soviets are next door and have long been a thorn and obstacle in expansion. So time to kick the door down while the Germans are marching on Moscow.
Attacking Pearl Harbour was a poor error. Midway was worse.
The Japanese have huge forces in China. So these forces have to be redistributed to newly conquered territories in the Pacific.
The massive gains Japan makes up to the borders of Australia are a disaster. Japan has simply conquered too much and has neither the resources, economy or manpower to defend every inch.
Japan is now fighting on the borders of India and China and Guadalcanal and it's just too much. Especially as most of the IJA are in China not doing a lot.
If I had to fight the Americans then I would invade the Philippines and then politely ask them try and take it back. Turn the islands into a giant fortress and wait for the inevitable invasion. And then try to stop it.
Cutting off Australia by naval blockade was feasible in 1942. Less so in 1943. Had the full might of Japanese naval power been at Coral Sea or Guadalcanal instead of been sunk at Midway then different story.
As soon as you fight USA, you are fighting a defensive war, not an offensive war. Japan were trying to go offensive and it doesn't work.
If the battleships/Cruisers approached early on, chances are good that they would have been mistaken for USN ships, much like the approaching attack aircraft were mistaken for the inbound B-17s from the mainland.
The IJN also failed to exploit their superior numbers of subs.
Here's a tip. Only fight things that are weaker than you.
You won't believe this but when you fight a much superior enemy, you get your ass kicked home to mamma.
Whouda funk it?
So how it could get any worse?Considering the kicking the Japanese got from the Soviets at Khalkhin Gol it was not going to happen plus the region simply lacked the infrastructure for a prolonged campaign. It is very unlikely that the Japanese would have had any significant successes against the Soviet Union,
While the Germans could do significant damage to the Soviets even with Japanese help it was never going to be enough they simply lacked the industry not only that I serieosly doubt the Japanese could have attacked the Soviets with any significant strength even if they wanted due to just how much of thier forces were tied down in China. Plus it would be a lot easier for Russia to support the Chinese than the Western Allies and with no attack on the Western Allies the Chinese are getting significantly more equipment as the Burma Road remains open. Plus without the opening of hostilities in the Pacific the Commonwealth is in a much better position in North Africa etc and can not only sent even more resources to the Soviets but can also build up in the west a lot quicker. It should be noted that German casualties were higher in Tunisia than at Stalingrad and that Goebells would refer to the campaign as "Tunisgrad". Also the strike north plan wouldn't have helped the Japanese as even though Siberia had large mineral reserves it lacks the resources that Japan actually needed Oil and Rubber as Oil production in the region was virtually non existent and it wasn't until 1961 that any significant Oil deposits were found and there were in Western Siberia i.e just behind the Ural mountains by Falman Salminov and thus they are completely out of reach and Siberia is not known for its rubber plantations.So how it could get any worse?
Get nuked more?
The Germans are defeating the Soviets for you. Just stick the boot in as appropriate.
I've stopped being surprised by how little I know. This surprised me. I definitely didn't study this enough.Considering the kicking the Japanese got from the Soviets at Khalkhin Gol it was not going to happen plus the region simply lacked the infrastructure for a prolonged campaign. It is very unlikely that the Japanese would have had any significant successes against the Soviet Union if they had attacked and in all liklihood any attack woudn't have been enough to swing the decison in the west with Germany it may have made it more difficult for the Soviets, but Germany never had a realistic chance of beating the Soviets and even if Moscow fell the Soviets would have kept fighting, It should also be noted that the Soviet campaign in 1945 against Japan is probably the closest to a perfect military campaign in History and is not studied anywhere near enough in the West. In 11 days the Soviets marched over 1000 miles and took 600,000 Japanese POWs
also destroying
for the loss of less than 10,000 men absolutely annihilating the veteran Kwantung Army a group that was the best equipped most experienced and largest army the Japanese had. The Japs were afraid of the Soviets and to be honest they had a point.
- 861–925 aircraft
- 369–600 tanks
- 2,576–3,704 guns and mortars captured
- 2,129–2,300 other vehicles captured
Completely urealistic, especially if the funny looking ships are shooting at you and all of the USN ships are in harbor, save a few destroyers patrolling at the harbor entrance. The personnel manning those ASW destroyers and those in the Diamond Head and other Coast Artillery observation posts are VERY adept at ship identification.Assuming that the Americans would continue to make constant mistakes in identification, all in Japan's favor seems an unrealistic expectation.
I dunno. We've all read the slips in aerial reconnaissance. Ships were being misidentified by all sides. This was after the fur started flying.This assumes the ships, which differed considerably in appearance from US ships would be mistaken like aircraft were.
The two Japanese heavy cruiser cruisers had four turrets forward of the Bridge, no turrets aft of the funnels, large catapults and one funnel, heavy raked.
View attachment 652914
A more unamerican cruiser would be very hard to find.
Assuming that the Americans would continue to make constant mistakes in identification, all in Japan's favor seems an unrealistic expectation.
Indeed, it's akin to going to John Wick's house and smacking him around and killing his puppy. All you've accomplished is to make him very angry and determined.The Japanese didn't have a military strategy goal at Pearl Harbour as they quickly left the field of battle as fast as they could. The military equivalent of a two pump chump. Go hard or go home and the carriers went home. So that's a F in my book.
With 48 hours notice I would not sail the battlefleet out to meet it's destruction but the Kido Butai. Instead the USN battlefleet and carriers sail west to standby. At Pearl every fighter is fueled, armed and ready. The radar stations are ready. Picket submarines are ready along the presumed route.Problem at Pearl is the Japanese had total surprise. But let's imagine 48 hour warning. It would have been very very dicey. And damaged ships ain't coming back home.
With that said, Germany doesn't formally declare war on the U.S.Indeed, it's akin to going to John Wick's house and smacking him around and killing his puppy. All you've accomplished is to make him very angry and determined.
With 48 hours notice I would not sail the battlefleet out to meet it's destruction but the Kido Butai. Instead the USN battlefleet and carriers sail west to standby. At Pearl every fighter is fueled, armed and ready. The radar stations are ready. Picket submarines are ready along the presumed route.