A Radial Engined Fighter for the Australians to build (and maybe the Chinese and Indians)

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

So in the Pacific, in mid 1943, there was a several month gap in activity by fleet CVs?

 

[EwenS]

Also, I guess the US fleet carriers went back to Hawaii or California to get their Hellcats and do a period of training and familiarization with them during summer 1943?

In mid 43 Saratoga was the only fully operational CV in the USN. She traded her air group containing Wildcats for one with Hellcats while in the South Pacific after the New Georgia operation. That squadron had started life with Corsairs but gave them up to the USMC and got Hellcats before joining the ship.

Essex completed Dec 42 followed by more of the class in early 43 together with the Independence class CVL. All these ships, except Bunker Hill IIRC, began operational life with Hellcats in their air groups. They picked up their new air groups on the east coast, worked up in the Atlantic / Caribbean before leaving for the Pacific. The BH got Corsairs for a while before it was decided for logistical reasons to standardise on the Hellcat.

The average time from ship completion to arrival at PH ready for operations was 5 months for the 16 Essex class that made it to the Pacific before the end of WW2. Essex as first of class was a bit longer.

Enterprise completed a major refit in mid-43 on the West Coast, and her new air group used Hellcats.

By mid 1944 the USN was working on replacing the entire air group on a carrier every 6 months where possible. This would usually be timed with repairs or refits, which usually meant a trip to the West Coast. But by 1945 spare air groups were held in Hawaii and even Guam.

In Dec 1944 when USMC Corsair squadrons joined the CV to boost fighter numbers against the kamikaze threat, they did so at the forward base, Ulithi.

 

[EwenS]

So in the Pacific, in mid 1943, there was a several month gap in activity by fleet CVs?

Not really. Sara and Vic were in the South Pacific through July.

The new carriers gathered at PH as they finished working up in the first half of the year. Starting in Aug they carried out various raids on Japanese bases on the likes of Wake and Marcus Islands. These continued to Oct. But they were hit and run operations about which little is heard. They represented a useful final work up for the carriers and their aircraft.

The next moves were
1. in the Solomons with landing operations at Bougainville on 1 Nov covered by Saratoga and the CVL Princeton
2. in the Central Pacific in the Gilbert and Marshall Islands starting at Makin and Tarawa on 20 Nov. That involved the Essex class Essex, Yorktown, Lexington, Bunker Hill plus Saratoga, a rejuvenated Enterprise and the CVL Cowpens, Belleau Wood, Monterey, Independence and Princeton plus 8 CVE.

Given that in Oct 1942 after the loss of Wasp and Hornet, the Pacific fleet only had Saratoga and a damaged Enterprise it represents a major turnaround.

Then operations moved on to raids on Rabaul and Truk, the Marianas, Palau, Leyte, Luzon, Indochina, IwoJima, Okinawa and finally Japan itself. (I've probably miss a few)

Right through to the end of the war carriers on their way from PH to join the fleet would hit places like Wake as a final work up. In the BPF the carrier Implacable newly arrived in the Pacific took a swipe at Truk in June 1945

Edit Remember these new ships didn't begin arriving in the Pacific until late May 1943. It took several months to amass the whole group.

 

[SaparotRob]

Good stuff! Thanks again, EwenS.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Not really. Sara and Vic were in the South Pacific through July.

Ok thanks so bear with me, so Saratoga and .... HMS Victorious? were active in the South Pacific through July, with Wildcats...? The rest of the carrier fleet was back in California or Hawaii getting the big refit / new launch with the new fighters. Or coming out of the shipyards.

Do you know much about activity by land based F6F in the Solomons or elsewhere? Or F4U? I think there were one or two squadrons of F4U active in 1943 right?

The new carriers gathered at PH as they finished working up in the first half of the year. Starting in Aug they carried out various raids on Japanese bases on the likes of Wake and Marcus Islands. These continued to Oct. But they were hit and run operations about which little is heard. They represented a useful final work up for the carriers and their aircraft.

The next moves were
1. in the Solomons with landing operations at Bougainville on 1 Nov covered by Saratoga and the CVL Princeton
2. in the Central Pacific in the Gilbert and Marshall Islands starting at Makin and Tarawa on 20 Nov. That involved the Essex class Essex, Yorktown, Lexington, Bunker Hill plus Saratoga, a rejuvenated Enterprise and the CVL Cowpens, Belleau Wood, Monterey, Independence and Princeton plus 8 CVE.

Given that in Oct 1942 after the loss of Wasp and Hornet, the Pacific fleet only had Saratoga and a damaged Enterprise it represents a major turnaround.

So Wasp was sunk by a submarine (scuttled after mortal wounding) Sept 1942, Hornet was destroyed during the Battle of Santa Cruz islands in Oct 42. Were they flying F4 or F6 by then? My understanding was F4F but maybe I missed something?

Then operations moved on to raids on Rabaul and Truk, the Marianas, Palau, Leyte, Luzon, Indochina, IwoJima, Okinawa and finally Japan itself. (I've probably miss a few)

Right through to the end of the war carriers on their way from PH to join the fleet would hit places like Wake as a final work up. In the BPF the carrier Implacable newly arrived in the Pacific took a swipe at Truk in June 1945

Edit Remember these new ships didn't begin arriving in the Pacific until late May 1943. It took several months to amass the whole group.

That is actually kind of funny, after committing all those atrocities the Japanese garrison on Wake island was stuck there for the rest of the war and got routinely attacked as 'practice' until the end of the war...

 

[DarrenW]

I am disappointed to learn that I apparently give the impression that I rely on Wikipedia as a 'primary source' for anything.

I was merely pointing out that this same glossing over can be found almost verbatim in the F6F Wikipedia article. Due to the target audience this is completely understandable. However members here expect much more and rightfully so.

For a basic understanding of F6F operations leading up to the Tawara Campaign we can look at the statistics provided by Naval Aviation Combat Statistics - World War II. From the first raid on Marcus Island on August 31 until the end of October 1943 there were a total of 812 Action Sorties flown by both carrier and land-based Hellcats. Strikes were performed against Japanese forces on Tarawa, Makin, Truk, and Wake Islands, among others. During this time there were a total of 80 aerial victories scored by both land and carrier-based F6F units.

Starting in November there were a series of raids against Rabual in order to make way for the impending assault on the Gilbert Islands which was due to begin on the 21st of that month. A total of 1,482 Action Sorties were flown, which began on the 5th. By the end of the month a total of 175 aerial victories were awarded to the Hellcat pilots.

By contrast, F4F/FM pilots flew a total of 42 Action Sorties during this same period, of which none were from land bases.

Do you know much about activity by land based F6F in the Solomons or elsewhere?

There were four US Navy squadrons which operated for a time on land, VF-1, 33, 38, and 40. VF-1 was stationed in Tawara, while the other three were in the Solomons. All of these units were rotated out by early 1944. There were also five US Marine night fighter units which were land based. VMF(N)-541 was stationed in the Philippines and VMF(N)-534 in Guam, while VMF(N)-533, 542, and 543 served in Okinawa. There's also VMD-354 which flew recce Hellcats out of Falalop in the later stages of the war.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

How many of those land based units active with F6F in 1943, and when in 1943

Is there any info on what kind of aircraft they were encountering over Wake, Tarawa etc.?

 

[DarrenW]

This is a great resource for the day-by-day air actions in the PTO (USAAF, USN, British, Australian, Japanese, ect.). Just select a month and there will be information about the missions, victories, and losses:

Pacific Wrecks - Chronology Day By Day World War II Pacific and Korean War

Chronology covers WWII Pacific and Korean War activities of the U.S. Army Air Force, U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, U.S. Marine Corps, Australian, New Zealand and Japanese with links to locations, aircraft and ships.

pacificwrecks.com

 

[DarrenW]

How many of those land based units active with F6F in 1943, and when in 1943

Is there any info on what kind of aircraft they were encountering over Wake, Tarawa etc.?

VF-33 was stationed for a time at Munda in the Solomons and were responsible for the first A6M victory by an F6F pilot (Ens J A Warren). This occurred on September 6, 1943. By the end of the month Solomon-based units VF-33, 38, and 40 brought down 29 of a total 35 shoot-downs credited to Hellcat pilots. From early 1944 onwards only Marine F6F units were land-based in the SWP.

 

[EwenS]

Ok thanks so bear with me, so Saratoga and .... HMS Victorious? were active in the South Pacific through July, with Wildcats...?

Yes. Sara switched to Hellcats about Aug / Sept 1943 while in South Pacific after Vic headed back to UK via PH.

The rest of the carrier fleet was back in California or Hawaii getting the big refit / new launch with the new fighters. Or coming out of the shipyards.

Yes. If you start with the Wiki pages (yes I know but it is a start!) on the Essex and Independence classes you will get completion dates and links to histories. Also DANFS for ship histories.

Do you know much about activity by land based F6F in the Solomons or elsewhere? Or F4U? I think there were one or two squadrons of F4U active in 1943 right?

I'm away from my library until the weekend and only have my not so smart phone so working largely from memory.

USMC operations with F4U in Solomons began Jan/Feb 1943. Can't remember about the F6F.

The first RN squadrons with F4U formed in June 1943 in the US. It was Spring 1944 before they saw operations.

The first RN squadrons got F6F about Aug 1943 in northern Ireland. Again the first operations were early 1944.

So Wasp was sunk by a submarine (scuttled after mortal wounding) Sept 1942, Hornet was destroyed during the Battle of Santa Cruz islands in Oct 42. Were they flying F4 or F6 by then? My understanding was F4F but maybe I missed something?

Both were flying F4F when lost.

 

[DarrenW]

Is there any info on what kind of aircraft they were encountering over Wake, Tarawa etc.?

The first aerial victories credited to Hellcat pilots were by VF-6 pilots over Howland and Baker Islands. These were a pair of H8K four-engine float planes brought down during the first few days of September 1943. First major battles with A6M occurred over Wake Island on October 5/6 1943. Rabaul was also a great place to encounter Zeros during the attacks on this Japanese stronghold in early-mid November of the year.

Because the US was primarily on the offensive during this time Japanese bombers were only occasionally encountered with the bulk of the aerial opposition being A6Ms.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Yes. Sara switched to Hellcats about Aug / Sept 1943 while in South Pacific after Vic headed back to UK via PH.

Which is pretty much what I thought... and it took a couple of months to get the Hellcat squadrons ready

Both were flying F4F when lost.

So it sounds like F4Fs were in action off of fleet carriers through Oct of 1943

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

The first aerial victories credited to Hellcat pilots were by VF-6 pilots over Howland and Baker Islands. These were a pair of H8K four-engine float planes brought down during the first few days of September 1943. First major battles with A6M occurred over Wake Island on October 5/6 1943. Rabaul was also a great place to encounter Zeros during the attacks on this Japanese stronghold in early-mid November of the year.

So no fleet carrier action from F6Fs until Oct 43. The fighter activity with F6Fs prior to that was with land based units, in the Solomons?

Because the US was primarily on the offensive during this time Japanese bombers were only occasionally encountered with the bulk of the aerial opposition being A6Ms.

 

[EwenS]

So no fleet carrier action from F6Fs until Oct 43. The fighter activity with F6Fs prior to that was with land based units, in the Solomons?

The Essex air group with its Hellcats struck Marcus Island on 31 August 1943. See DANFS ship history for Essex.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

The Essex air group with its Hellcats struck Marcus Island on 31 August 1943. See DANFS ship history for Essex.

Ok Minami-Tori-shima - Wikipedia

And they were fighting.... ?

 

[EwenS]

Ok Minami-Tori-shima - Wikipedia

And they were fighting.... ?

What do you mean?
Their operations would have at the very least included CAP and escort to the TBF and SBD. Possible also fighter sweep against enemy airfields. To me that is fighting. Very boring but very essential.

If you are asking about air to air you need to dig deeper in your research.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I'm saying i have the understanding that attacks on Minmi and Wake were basically live fire training runs. The original context for this branch of the discussion was my assertion that the Wildcat was actually more relevant to the pivotal battles of the war whereas the Hellcat, in spite of being a better aircraft, being produced in greater numbers, and destroying far more enemy aircraft, was not in action until late 1943.

I was then told this meant i was getting my sources from Wikipedia. It seems there were some F6F units active in the Solomons from mid 1943 (well, late Summer 1943) and they were engaged in combat. But I gather (ready to be proven wrong on this) that navy F6Fs were not heavily engaged until the fall of that year. I gather they did shoot down some flying boats in August.

My question in my last post was to do with how heavily engaged they were at that early stage (August, September) with Japanese forces.

 

[EwenS]

So it sounds like F4Fs were in action off of fleet carriers through Oct of 1943

The last time Sara was recorded with F4F was in the Official USN report on aircraft locations for 17 Aug 1943.

The next report dated 24 Aug has VF12 aboard with F4U. By 7 Sept VF12 is ashore at Efate with F6F. During Sept looks like Sara was based there because rest of the air group was partly ashore and partly on the ship. By 28th Sept the whole air group is back aboard including F6F equipped VF12.

So after Aug 1943 the only CV with F4F was Ranger in the Atlantic until end of Nov when she went to refit to emerge as a training carrier in 1944.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Thank you for the update on the operational data!

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

This is a great resource for the day-by-day air actions in the PTO (USAAF, USN, British, Australian, Japanese, ect.). Just select a month and there will be information about the missions, victories, and losses:

Pacific Wrecks - Chronology Day By Day World War II Pacific and Korean War

Chronology covers WWII Pacific and Korean War activities of the U.S. Army Air Force, U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, U.S. Marine Corps, Australian, New Zealand and Japanese with links to locations, aircraft and ships.

pacificwrecks.com

This IS a good resource, thanks for posting!