A Radial Engined Fighter for the Australians to build (and maybe the Chinese and Indians)

[FLYBOYJ]

I believe that was the 475th FG

OK - the 475th FG started operations May, 1943, Amberley Field Australia. It conducted training until August when at that time it was fully operational. Now you mentioned Boyington - he was a Marine, never involved with any AAF units ASAIK. Do you mean McGuire?

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Grumman produced it's last F4F-4 in May of 1943. Grumman produced 100 F4F-4s in 1943.
They also produced a batch of 100 F4F-3 to be used as trainers but that was before the last F4F-4s were built.
Eastern Aircraft was tooling up to make the FM-1s in late 1942.
Only in the first few months of 1943 did the combined total of F4F-4s and FM-1s exceed the production of F6Fs.
By the end of 1943 Grumman had built about 1000 more F6Fs than Grumman and Easter Aircraft combined built F4F/FMs.

Agreed on the F4U production figures and 1943 F6F ones. Grumman produced its last F4F-4 in December 1942, then 100 F4F-3 January to May 1943. Eastern Aircraft started FM-1 production in September 1942.

F4F + FM-1 versus F6F production, early 1943
39 versus 12 in January
54 versus 35 in February
80 versus 81 in March (including the XF6F-3), thereafter more F6F than F4F + FM-1

To end 1943 there were 3,438 F4F + FM-1 built versus 2,557 F6F, totals include prototypes.

The Australians built a lot of Beaufighters but in late 1941 they were still struggling to get the Bfort into production plus the Herc engines had to come from Britain and that was never going to happen before late 42 at the earliest. There was a Cyclone Bfighter but as far as I know it was a one off and had problems. I am sure that others will be able to expand on that.

Australian Beaufighter production began in May 1944. The RAAF Cyclone Beaufighter was mark Ic A19-2 ex T4921, arrived on 20 April 1942, saw service with 30 squadron, to Department of Aircraft Production 5 February 1943. Used as test machine. Aircraft was fitted with American Wright Cyclone GR-2600-A5B 14 cylinder dual row radial engines with superchargers in case the supply of Hercules engines from Great Britain was interrupted. As this never occurred no other Beaufighters were so converted. Its performance was slightly below the standard Hercules XVII and the bigger American engine required a new slightly larger nacelle which extended past the wing trailing edge.

Not sure of any problems with A19-2, 1 Aircraft Performance Unit, reports on Beaufighter A19-2
19-Jul-44 Wright engines, awaiting return of reconditioned fuel tanks, cowl gill modifications proceeding
20-Sep-44 Wright engines, ready for test flights.
4-Oct-44 Wright engines, dihedral tail plane being installed.
11-Oct-44 Wright engines, dihedral tail plane installed, being checked.
15-Nov-44 Modification to undercarriage door proceeding.
29-Nov-44 Wright engines, Modification to undercarriage door done, being prepared for tests.
24-Jan-45 Installing hydraulically operated undercarriage doors.
7-Feb-45 Installing hydraulically operated undercarriage doors, nearly done
7-Mar-45 Installing hydraulically operated undercarriage doors
21-Mar-45 Installing hydraulically operated undercarriage door mechanism
5-Apr-45 Installing hydraulically operated undercarriage door mechanism, expected completion 6 April
1-Jun-45 Undercarriage nacelle door operation to be finalised
1-Aug-45 Preparation for flight trials continuing, engines run and cleared by AID, airframe inspection continuing.

For hopefully better detail than in the weekly reports, Series A9186 control symbol 307 RAAF Unit History sheets (Form A50) [Operations Record Book - Forms A50 and A51] Number 1 Aircraft Performance Unit Dec 43 - Nov 60 is digitised

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

OK - the 475th FG started operations May, 1943, Amberley Field Australia. It conducted training until August when at that time it was fully operational. Now you mentioned Boyington - he was a Marine, never involved with any AAF units ASAIK. Do you mean McGuire?

Yes sorry McGuire, i was also thinking about the early Corsair units and scrambled that

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Yes sorry McGuire, i was also thinking about the early Corsair units and scrambled that

Correction again: Looking back at what I actually wrote, I meant to say Bong and McGuire, and I scrambled Boyington with Bong. Both Bong and McGuire started out with the 49th FG flying P-40s (I think) and ended up in the 475th for a while, which is where the P-38 really came into it's own. This was in part due to the obsessive / compulsive nature of McGuire who really leaned on the armorers and mechanics to get as many of the small issues sorted out as possible - often it takes units months to adjust to all the needs and teething issues which make the difference sometimes between success and failure. They went through the same things with the F4U in the Solomons. They had the same issues with P-40s in Darwin and New Guinea (and in the Western Desert). And with Spitfires in Darwin too of course.

McGrath annoyed some people and no doubt would have been hard to work with, but he pushed himself just as hard, and it seems like his attention to detail paid dividends. I suspect he accelerated the overall success of the P-38 somewhat, given the relatively small numbers operational in the Pacific in the mid-war and the many issues they needed to figure out.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yes sorry McGuire, i was also thinking about the early Corsair units and scrambled that

Now the 475th was a result of General Kenny finally getting P-38s in numbers and when the unit was formed it kind of became an "all star" team and it drew experienced pilots from other V Fighter Command units. Of course McGuire was in the mix as well as Charles MacDonald and Danny Roberts who, IMO could have been the top scoring fighter pilot in the PTO had he not been KIA.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Correction again: Looking back at what I actually wrote, I meant to say Bong and McGuire, and I scrambled Boyington with Bong. Both Bong and McGuire started out with the 49th FG flying P-40s (I think) and ended up in the 475th for a while, which is where the P-38 really came into it's own. This was in part due to the obsessive / compulsive nature of McGuire who really leaned on the armorers and mechanics to get as many of the small issues sorted out as possible - often it takes units months to adjust to all the needs and teething issues which make the difference sometimes between success and failure. They went through the same things with the F4U in the Solomons. They had the same issues with P-40s in Darwin and New Guinea (and in the Western Desert). And with Spitfires in Darwin too of course.

McGrath annoyed some people and no doubt would have been hard to work with, but he pushed himself just as hard, and it seems like his attention to detail paid dividends. I suspect he accelerated the overall success of the P-38 somewhat, given the relatively small numbers operational in the Pacific in the mid-war and the many issues they needed to figure out.

I don't think Bong ever flew P-40s. I do know McGuire flew P-39s before he was deployed the the SWP.

 

[SaparotRob]

Would Major Bong have trained on P-40s?

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I don't think Bong ever flew P-40s. I do know McGuire flew P-39s before he was deployed the the SWP.

I said that because 49th FG was a P-40 unit, which (very gradually) shifted over to P-38s, starting with the 9th FS which Bong was in.

From the wiki (for what it's worth)

"On September 10, 1942, Lt. Bong was assigned to the 9th Fighter Squadron, which was flying P-40 Warhawks, based at Darwin, Australia. In November, while the squadron waited for delivery of the scarce P-38s, Bong and other 9th FS pilots were reassigned temporarily to fly missions and gain combat experience with the 39th Fighter Squadron, 35th Fighter Group, based in Port Moresby, New Guinea. On December 27, Bong claimed his initial aerial victory, shooting down a Mitsubishi A6M "Zero", and a Nakajima Ki-43 "Oscar" over Buna (during the Battle of Buna-Gona).[7]​ For this action, Bong was awarded the Silver Star."

So it sounds like he did fly P-40s but probably only for a short time. McGuire was also in the 9th FS, 49th FG, but he got there later, in March 1943, and I think they may have had P-38s by then. Prior to that he flew P-39s with the 54th FG in the Aleutians. Anyway it sounds like McGuire was with the 49th FG for only for two months before he went to the 475th.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Would Major Bong have trained on P-40s?

He might have flown a P-40 but AFAIK all of this SWP combat time was in P-38s.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

He might have flown a P-40 but AFAIK all of this SWP combat time was in P-38s.

Looks like he flew P-40s for 3 months (but in Darwin) prior to being transfered to the 35FG. 49th FG having defended Darwin was being transferred to Port Morseby area but I think during that time only 7th and 8th FS were already there.

 

[SaparotRob]

I said that because 49th FG was a P-40 unit, which (very gradually) shifted over to P-38s, starting with the 9th FS which Bong was in.

From the wiki (for what it's worth)

"On September 10, 1942, Lt. Bong was assigned to the 9th Fighter Squadron, which was flying P-40 Warhawks, based at Darwin, Australia. In November, while the squadron waited for delivery of the scarce P-38s, Bong and other 9th FS pilots were reassigned temporarily to fly missions and gain combat experience with the 39th Fighter Squadron, 35th Fighter Group, based in Port Moresby, New Guinea. On December 27, Bong claimed his initial aerial victory, shooting down a Mitsubishi A6M "Zero", and a Nakajima Ki-43 "Oscar" over Buna (during the Battle of Buna-Gona).[7]​ For this action, Bong was awarded the Silver Star."

So it sounds like he did fly P-40s but probably only for a short time. McGuire was also in the 9th FS, 49th FG, but he got there later, in March 1943, and I think they may have had P-38s by then. Prior to that he flew P-39s with the 54th FG in the Aleutians. Anyway it sounds like McGuire was with the 49th FG for only for two months before he went to the 475th.

Major Bong has a very impressive record (understatement) but I'm really impressed now that he differentiated between a Zero and an Oscar.

 

[SaparotRob]

I just remembered Major Bong saying he was a bad shot and had to get real close.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I said that because 49th FG was a P-40 unit, which (very gradually) shifted over to P-38s, starting with the 9th FS which Bong was in.

From the wiki (for what it's worth)

"On September 10, 1942, Lt. Bong was assigned to the 9th Fighter Squadron, which was flying P-40 Warhawks, based at Darwin, Australia. In November, while the squadron waited for delivery of the scarce P-38s, Bong and other 9th FS pilots were reassigned temporarily to fly missions and gain combat experience with the 39th Fighter Squadron, 35th Fighter Group, based in Port Moresby, New Guinea. On December 27, Bong claimed his initial aerial victory, shooting down a Mitsubishi A6M "Zero", and a Nakajima Ki-43 "Oscar" over Buna (during the Battle of Buna-Gona).[7]​ For this action, Bong was awarded the Silver Star."

So it sounds like he did fly P-40s but probably only for a short time. McGuire was also in the 9th FS, 49th FG, but he got there later, in March 1943, and I think they may have had P-38s by then. Prior to that he flew P-39s with the 54th FG in the Aleutians. Anyway it sounds like McGuire was with the 49th FG for only for two months before he went to the 475th.

This is correct but as you know, you really have to double check Wiki - I don't believe Bong ever flew the P-40 in combat. All of his claims were scored in the P-38 and he was flying the P-38 stateside as well.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Bong's first aerial victories were scored on December 27, 1942 and he was flying a P-38 during that mission.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

"Bong was assigned to the 9th Squadron of the 49th Fighter Group, but that unit was still flying Curtiss P-40s. Rather than waste Bong's time on an aging fighter when he had already mastered its imminent replacement, in December 1942 Lt. Gen. Kenney attached him temporarily to the 39th Squadron, 35th Fighter Group, based at Laloki airfield near Port Moresby, New Guinea. There, Bong made the acquaintance of Captain Thomas J. Lynch, who had scored three victories the previous May while flying Bell P-39 Airacobras. Hailing from Catasaugua, Pa., Tommy Lynch was a good pilot and a cool-headed, technically minded tactician whose aerial audacity never clashed with his sense of responsibility for the men he led. Honing his fighting skills under Lynch's tutelage, Bong came to regard him as both a mentor and a friend."

The Spectacular Combat Career of America's Ace of Aces: Richard Ira Bong

Richard Ira Bong shot down 40 Japanese aircraft and "ruled the air from New Guinea to the Philippines" on his way to becoming America's Ace of Aces.

www.historynet.com

EDIT: It looks like Bong, while assigned to the 9th, got reassigned TDY to the 39th Fighter Squadron, 35th Fighter Group who had P-38s assigned to them. After becoming an ace with the 35th, he went back to the 9th January, 1943.

 

[Farky]

Not a bad way to go. I think there is little doubt more Beaufighters would be useful, as every one in the Theater seemed to leave a dent on the Japanese. Plus the Aussies were building Beauforts so in theory the Beaufighter shouldn't a huge difference in terms of production (I'm sure someone can chime in on that one!)

Hawk would still arguably be better than a Boomerang IMO, and Gloster could have been produced, in theory, though it might have been a nightmare for Australian industry to figure it out.

It also depends if we are talking about same timeline. If this is the case, there is no way that different airplane can be with operational units in 12-ish months from decision to produce it like it was with Boomerang. Different airplane will be with units lets say at the beginning of 1944 and even that is IMO optimistic.

Hawk was probably slightly better than Boomerang, by a narrow margin. But, you still get second line fighter at best in Hawk and you get them way more later than Boomerangs. I don't see the benefits.

Glosters could have been in theory produced, however both of them needed more developement and conversion to Twin Wasp (which Beaufigher needed too to be fair). Which means RAAF will get them even more later than Hawk.

 

[DarrenW]

While it may be true from one perspective, (as the replacement was certainly in the pipeline) and you have an ineresting point about the victory claims, this doesn't make sense to me overall, since there were no Hellcats in action on carriers until mid 1943 at the earliest, right? So Wildcat wasn't "on it's way out" in early 1943 since nothing else was in place.

Depends on how you interpret my rather ambiguous phrase "on it's way out" to mean. I was merely implying that by early 1943 the role of the Wildcat as the prime fighter in the US Navy's inventory was on the decline, though it was certainly in use during period of transition from F4F to F6F. And as others have already stated, production shifted dramatically by this time, with Grumman eventually deciding to ONLY concentrate on Hellcats and out-source all Wildcats and Avengers to General Motors.

 

[Shortround6]

Part of the problem in using the Gloster F5/34 (or other British prototype) is there is no tooling.
It is one thing to have drawings of parts. It is much easier to have drawings of the jigs, fixtures and forms that make the parts you need to actually make the fighter.
They don't design the jigs, fixtures and forms until they get a production contract because that will also dictate what kind of jigs, fixtures and forms maybe designed.
If you are tooling up to build 500 planes you build them one way, if you are only going to build 60 you use less dedicated jigs and fixtures and if you are only building the 3rd plane out of a total of three you send Sammy out to the tree stump in back with a pile of aluminum and couple of hammers.

And when you start modifying a design things get dark real quick. An R-1830 was almost 50% more than a Bristol Mercury and 500lbs on a 4200lb empty airplane needs some series reworking. How long before the plane falls on it's nose?
You may be able to fix it. But how much of the original F5/34 are you going to save.

 

[Shortround6]

with Grumman eventually deciding to ONLY concentrate on Hellcats and out-source all Wildcats and Avengers to General Motors.

And the decision to outsource the F4F was made in early 1942?
Eastern Aircraft was born on Jan 21st 1942.
Preliminary talks had started with Republic and then talks shifted to Grumman and the Avenger. With the start of Eastern Aircraft they had two different planes they would be responsible for and instead of securing work for 3,000-4,000 workers at Linden NJ they wound up planning to use 5 different factories. 3 in New Jersey, one in New York and one in Maryland,

Letters of intent were filed on Feb 5 for the Avenger and Feb 9th for the WIldcat.

When they decided for Grumman to only build the F6F may have come later. The F6F was several months away from flying.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

This is correct but as you know, you really have to double check Wiki - I don't believe Bong ever flew the P-40 in combat. All of his claims were scored in the P-38 and he was flying the P-38 stateside as well.

Yeah I never said he had any claims in the P-40. As for 'in combat' I guess that depends what you mean, but I think you may be right. He flew them in a combat unit in a combat zone for a couple of months, but that didn't necessarily mean he encountered any enemy aircraft. So is that combat? I'm not sure. There were several (16) Japanese raids against Darwin during the time he was active there, but I think by then many if not most of them were at night? And P-40 isn't a night fighter.

The passage you quoted has pretty much the same timeline as the wiki.

Anyway I wasn't trying to argue that Bong or McGuire were mainly P-40 or P-39 drivers...? Whatever their early experiences, their famous combat success was in the P-38.