A Radial Engined Fighter for the Australians to build (and maybe the Chinese and Indians)

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

It does, but you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

A P-40K used 8.80 gears. It had the -73 engine. Yes it will give you 1325 hp for take off instead of 1150hp of the -39 in the P-40E.
The difference in the two engines was the -39 gave you 1150hp at 11,700ft while the -73 gave you 1150hp at 12,000ft (how good are your spark plugs or how clean are your backfire screens).
The -73 engine could NOT MAKE any more power at any altitude than the -39 engine could. Due to it's stronger construction they allowed the -73 to make more power down low, like for take-off or when the plane was low enough that the supercharger could make more than the 56in of boost the -39 was limited to to. Now to get to that power at 60in of pressure you have to be flying several thousand feet lower than the the plane with the -39 engine is flying making 56in of pressure.

Not that much lower. But the part you are missing (intentionally or otherwise) is that, depending on the mission, the DAF often flew at very low altitudes. 5-6000 feet wasn't unusual. I am not, however, insisting that his Kittyhawk III from the anecdotes was a P-40K, since I don't actually know, and neither do you. I know you like the P-40M better, but that was not apparently what pilots in the field thought.

I can cite you some examples of how low they were flying because this too was an issue - one which the Germans heavily criticized the British for, but which many British and Commonwealth pilots routinely acknowledged.

We can argue about exactly which altitude that is according to how much you have Ram but that is basically it. The -73 engine will not give you any more power more than around 6000ft or so (No RAM Is 4300ft) than the -39 engine. Now in the story Officer Gibbes uses his superior power to leave the other Allied pilots behind and overtake the German planes that were flying above them and does so in such a way that his squadron mates are no longer in range or able to engage the enemy so how long did this take or what distance was involved?
Now if he was flying a P-40M (Kittyhawk III) with a -81 engine he would have several hundred more hp at around 9,000ft to 11,000 than his squadron mates and the story would make very good sense. Closer to 6-7,000ft his advantage over his squadron mates would get smaller and finally disappear. Over 11,000ft hew would still have an advantage although also getting smaller but not disappearing.

Again, we don't know, but the other fighters he was with were most likely Kittyhawk Mk II, i.e. Merlin XX engines, and there weren't too many altitude bands that a P-40M was making more power than they were. Maybe right between gears?

The point I was making is that they did have extra power available from some of those engines, and it clearly wasn't down at sea level.

The story doesn't say he dove on the enemy planes and used superior power at low attitude to overtake the German planes.

So we are both guessing.
I have shown you that running at 2600rpm is only worth about 20mph over running at 3000rpm. You have seen that the manuals only want to you use the 3000rpm limit for 15 minutes (at best, some manuals say 5 minutes on the early engines)

Now increasing power to 2600rpm from an unknow setting was certainly easy enough to do. A P-40 could cruise at from 1800rpm or under up to 2600rpm. Speed could go from 183 IAS (216mph true) at 9000ft at 1800rpm to 261 IAS at 2600rpm (308mph true) so there was certainly more than enough ability to increase power prior to contact without going to military power.
Now if you are going down to bomb/strafe you do want the engine to operating at 3000rpm before contact. It you have a number of minutes to go at altitude before you are in the target area or you are flying cover for other aircraft (A-20 or Baltimore strike?) perhaps you don't want to be at Military power before you see enemy aircraft.

Again, I don't know precisely because they rarely mention what RPM or precise throttle settings they were using in pilot interviews and so on, (partly because the interviewers wouldn't usually know what that even meant). They do say they picked up speed as they got into enemy territory. If they can get up to 300mph + at 38" Hg or 42" Hg, I think that is probably in the ballpark of what they were looking for. I don't think the 15 minute limit for military power was strictly followed in the combat areas though, though I suspect it was in rear area training areas. The 'military power' rating changed in the manuals as the war progressed, just as the WEP rating did.

Some strange accounting going on there, except that the Bearcat had zero impact on the war, never got into combat.

Ok I'll spell it out a biut more clearly. Raw production numbers do not reflect significance in the war. Sometimes it did - they produced a hell of a lot of Spitfires, Bf 109s, Il-2s, P-51s, A6Ms etc., but sometimes it really didn't. Many types (particularly Allied types but Axis too) kept being produced even though they directly contributed very little, if anything, to the war. Service as a target tug was no doubt needed, but it was not on the same level of importance as a fighter that can and did shoot down enemy aircraft or a bomber that destroys enemy ships or tanks. Conversely, some types only produced in quite small numbers were still very important in the war because they were involved in the fighting during pivotal moments in a particular theater of the war. In some cases the newer fighter which was more widely produced was a better airplane. A Fairey Firefly is objectively a better figghter than a Macchi MC 200 - faster, better range, more heavily armed. But it wasn't in action early enough or in the right areas to have a major impact on the outcome of the war.

I know this is going to open a can of worms, but since you are being deliberately obstinate about this, let me be a bit cheeky too and give you some more obvious examples of my already very obvious point about Spit 1 vs. Spit V.

Needless to say, some later types may have still been effective and still did have an effect, but it just didn't matter as much because the tide of the war had already turned. A good example of this is the SBD vs. the SB2C. They made many more Helldivers, but the SBD was actually more important because of when it was in action (and how soon it was ready to fight effectively).

Brewster Buccaneer bomber - 771 produced
Martin Maryland bomber - 450 produced

Which bomber was more important for the war effort?

Douglas SBD Dauntless - 5936 produced
Curtiss SB2C Helldiver - 7140 produced

Which of the two was more important to the outcome of WW2 in general and the Pacific War in particular? Which type played a more pivotal role?

Bell P-63 Kingcobra fighter - 3303 produced
Macchi C.202 fighter - 1150 produced

Which of these two fighters shot down more enemy aircraft?

Fairey Battle bomber - 2201 produced
Aichi D3A bomber - 1405 produced (D3A1 and D3A2)

Which type caused more damage to the enemy during the war? Which type destroyed more militarily significant targets?

Fairey Barracuda torpedo bomber - 2602 produced
B5N "Kate" torpedo bomber - 1149 produced

Which type sunk more ships? Which type had more direct effect on the war?

Handley Page Hampden bomber - 1430 produced
Mitsubishi G3M bomber - 1048 produced

Which bomber type had more impact on the war? Which type destroyed more militarily significant targets? Which type sunk more ships?

Fairey Firefly - 1702 produced (through 1955)
Macchi C.200 Saetta - 1151 produced

Which of these fighters shot down more enemy aircraft?

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

here is an example of sustained flight at high boost, in either a P-40K or F. It is an excerpt from a letter written by the pilot to his family on the day after the action.

This is all directly from P-40 Aces of the Med (Osprey), page 16:

Another 64th FS [57th FG] pilot taking part in the 9 October mission was 1Lt George D Mobbs, who had a much rougher time of it. He recorded this description in his diary:

'We got mixed up and got to the landing ground ahead of the bombers, but went in to strafe anyway. That is, most of us did. I was on the outside, and just as we started to go down, for or five '109s started to attack me. I turned into them and got a short burst at one, but it was a 90 -degree deflection shot. Three of them kept attacking me, and I kept evading them, and occasionally getting a shot. Meanwhile, the rest of our aeroplanes had gone in to strafe and then flown out to sea, but I couldn't join them because the three German fighters kept on attacking me.

I was running the engine at 55 to 65 inches of mercury and 3,000 rpm, so I could pretty well stay with them. They would keep alternating the attacks between them. After a few minutes I got on one of their tails and was overtaking him. I didn't open fire until I was about 100 yards from him. I gave him a squirt and nothing happened. I moved over a little and changed my sighting, and on about the third burst his aeroplane burst into flames and fell off to one side. I was going to watch him go down so I would have a chance of getting credit for one destroyed, but one of the other jokers attacked so I was busy evading him. However, I spotted the first one moments later a few hundred feet below me, still spiraling down, but I never got another look at him after that.

I was still in a hole. The other two kept attacking, one after the other. Later, I got a few shots at one from directly behind and slightly above as we were diving. I could see the aeroplane jerk each time I pulled the trigger but saw no debris or fire from it., and I was driven away by the other one. attacking. I must have hit the Jerry, because I never saw him again.

Now I just had one to worry about, but on his next attack I finished my ammunition. He kept following and attacking, but with just him to worry about, I was making pretty good time back toward our lines. On another attack we met head-on, and I didn't think he fired his guns. I didn't see them, anyway, and i was already out of ammunition.

We were down pretty low by then - 1000 ft - and the German ack-ack had opened up at me. But I was going so fast that they were shooting behind me. I had everything forward. I was running awfully hard, and the ack ack was getting pretty close to the Jerry behind me. It was kind of amusing, because it looked as if I was going to make it back if my engine didn't quit. We were so low that I could see the ack-ack gun emplacements below.'

In fact the engine in 1Lt Mobbs' P-40F did hold together and the Bf 109 gave up the chase. The American returned safely to base, where he was awarded one Bf 109 probably destroyed for the mission. Four days later, Mobbs recorded his first of four confirmed victories during a scrap with 20 Bf 109s over El Alamein.
Mobbs probable claim was later downgraded to a 'damaged'.

I looked up that second combat mentioned above on the 13th. On that day Kittyhawk I from 4 SAAF claimed 2 Ju 87, and P-40Fs from 57th FG claimed 2 Bf 109s, one by Lt George Mobbs. Actual German losses (per Shores MAW II P. 372) were two Bf 109F-4 and one Ju 87.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

This was definitely an emergency situation but i don't get the idea that he restricted his higher boost settings to 5 minutes. Of course, in this case he was definitely at low altitude as well.

 

[Shortround6]

I am not, however, insisting that his Kittyhawk III from the anecdotes was a P-40K, since I don't actually know, and neither do you. I know you like the P-40M better, but that was not apparently what pilots in the field thought.

You are right, I don't know if it was a P-40K or not, however.

The RAF got 21 P-40Ks as Kittyhawk IIIs. That is it 21 planes.
Brazil got more P-40Ks than Britain did.

The British got 260 P-40L with Merlin engines and to keep us on our toes, called some of them Kittyhawk IIs and some were called Kittyhawk IIIs.

Now it is not that I really like the P-40M (I don't dislike it either) but lets look at the numbers.
Curtiss built 600 P-40Ms. The US got 5, just 5.
The British Commonwealth got 595 and also called them Kittyhawk IIIs
Of the 595
the RAF got 94
The South Africans got 90 with some Kittyhawk IVs thrown in.
New Zealand got 36
Australia got 97
The Russians got 220 from British accounts.
!5 went to Canada, 9 went to Brazil.
Totals don't line up, and what was originally assigned destinations often changed.
Somehow the US got 36 that were sent to Karachi India and at least 20 of them wound up in Chungking, China. There were other batches that showed up in the South Pacific.

Just by sheer numbers there were a lot more RAF (or British Commonwealth) P-40M type Kittyhawk IIIs floating around than P-40K KittyHawk IIIs.

gain, we don't know, but the other fighters he was with were most likely Kittyhawk Mk II, i.e. Merlin XX engines,

We are guessing again and this also makes no sense in the story.
If the Kittyhawk IIs he was flying with had Merlin's and were allowed to to use WEP Then they would have had more power than he did, not less.

The story makes sense according to the account if he had a plane with better performance at altitude than the rest of the unit.
While not impossible that the Kittyhawk III was P-40K (which doesn't have superior power at anything more than a few thousand feet) it is at several times more likely that it was a Kittyhawk III P-40M based on the numbers in theater. 2nd best guess is that it was a Kittyhawk III P-40L but a lot of those had four guns and had the front fuel tank taken out, but not all did.

 

[ThomasP]

Some info that might be of interest.

Official Allison issued spec no.159-B revised 25 June 1942 (no RAM) for the V-1710-73:

1325 BHP (3000 rpm at 51"Hg) for TO upto 5 min (No mention of WEP but by the chart 51"Hg would have been possible upto ~6,000 ft)
1150 BHP (3000 rpm at 42"Hg) for Mil at 12,000 ft


Official AM/RR revised boost for the Merlin XX/21/22/23 as of June 1942 (no RAM)

1470/1350 BHP (3000 rpm at 58.4"Hg/+14 lb) for WEP at ~6,250/12,750 ft in Low/High gear
1245/1135 BHP (3000 rpm at 48.2"Hg/+9 lb) for Mil at 11,800/18,250 ft in Low/High gear

The RAF began in-service testing of 62.5"Hg/+16 lb for the Merlin XX series (High gear) and the Merlin 45 in June 1942. This was subsequently given the official OK in November 1942. Power at SC change from Low to High gear was 1400 BHP at ~8,000 ft.
In-service testing was also begun for use of 58.4"Hg/+14 lb for TO in the Merlin XX series about the same time. This was also given the official OK in November 1942.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

You are right, I don't know if it was a P-40K or not, however.

You should have quit while you were ahead. I know you are very knowledgeable about engines and superchargers, but you are out of your depth here and clearly are not very familiar with the operational history in this Theater.

The RAF got 21 P-40Ks as Kittyhawk IIIs. That is it 21 planes.
Brazil got more P-40Ks than Britain did.

That isn't accurate, also 3 RAAF was an Australian not British unit. The planes moved around by rather circuitous paths and not all came directly.

The British got 260 P-40L with Merlin engines and to keep us on our toes, called some of them Kittyhawk IIs and some were called Kittyhawk IIIs.

3 RAAF was one of two British / Commonwealth units equipped with P-40Fs in the Western Desert. This was a somewhat fraught and touchy issue, because the British (+ friends) had been waiting for Merlin-powered Kittyhawks since the fighting started there. Instead, for the most part they went to the 5 US Fighter Groups active in North Africa. They also equipped the 49th FG in the South Pacific for a time.

However, there were complications. There were shortages of the highly-sought after Merlin powered P-40s and also of spare parts and spare engines for them. The British provided these in large part, I think some engines and spare parts were taken from damaged Hurricanes. They had a kind of equipment and supplies pool in the Theater. Anyway, at one point one of the first US FG in Theater, 57th FG, ran short of P-40F/Ls and had to equip one squadron (64th FS) with P-40Ks for a few months. You can see one of them here in this famous Life Magazine photo, it is the aircraft of five victory Ace Jay Overcash, note the tell-tale tail fin, which only early model P-40Ks had. There is another black and white photo of this aircraft here.

As soon as these P-40Ks were replaced by P-40Ls, they were given to the British and as Gibbes mentioned, "stolen" from one unit to the other.

Now it is not that I really like the P-40M (I don't dislike it either) but lets look at the numbers.
Curtiss built 600 P-40Ms. The US got 5, just 5.
The British Commonwealth got 595 and also called them Kittyhawk IIIs
Of the 595
the RAF got 94
The South Africans got 90 with some Kittyhawk IVs thrown in.
New Zealand got 36
Australia got 97
The Russians got 220 from British accounts.
!5 went to Canada, 9 went to Brazil.
Totals don't line up, and what was originally assigned destinations often changed.
Somehow the US got 36 that were sent to Karachi India and at least 20 of them wound up in Chungking, China. There were other batches that showed up in the South Pacific.

Just by sheer numbers there were a lot more RAF (or British Commonwealth) P-40M type Kittyhawk IIIs floating around than P-40K KittyHawk IIIs.

Right, but that would be incorrect. Here is the thing. We know exactly what these units had, thanks to a bunch of patriotic ANZACs who researched the history of these units.

So take a look at this page here.

ADF Serials - Kittyhawk

You will notice that there were a large number of P-40K operational with the Australian squadrons in North Africa. Most were with 450 RAAF, but some were with 3 RAAF. Specifically, P-40K-5-CU (as Kittyhawk III), RAF Serial number FL715, was with 3 RAAF and 5 SAAF before crash landing in Aug 1943
P-40K-5-CU (as Kittyhawk III), RAF Serial number FL721 was with 3 RAAF, then 450 RAAF, then 260 RAF before being shot down in May 1943
P-40K-15-CU (as Kittyhawk III), RAF Serial number FR476 was with 450 RAAF, then 3 RAAF, was destroyed in an accident and written off in June 1943
P-40K-5-CU (as Kittyhawk III) RAF Serial number FS413 was with 3 RAAF until damaged during a landing in July 1943
P-40K-10-CU (as Kitythawk III) RAF Serial number FS420 was with 3 RAAF through 1945, flown by Squadron leader Jack Doyle

So, at least 5 P-40Ks did serve with 3 RAAF, which was not a huge unit. There were also about 20 more with 450 RAAF, and some of the RAF units had them as well (as noted by Gibbes in the interview). They did also have P-40F, L and M, and prior to that Tomahawks and Kittyhawk I and Ia (P-40D and E)

We are guessing again and this also makes no sense in the story.
If the Kittyhawk IIs he was flying with had Merlin's and were allowed to to use WEP Then they would have had more power than he did, not less.

The story makes sense according to the account if he had a plane with better performance at altitude than the rest of the unit.
While not impossible that the Kittyhawk III was P-40K (which doesn't have superior power at anything more than a few thousand feet) it is at several times more likely that it was a Kittyhawk III P-40M based on the numbers in theater. 2nd best guess is that it was a Kittyhawk III P-40L but a lot of those had four guns and had the front fuel tank taken out, but not all did.

Mine was an educated guess, and I told you why. You don't know me so it's understandable that you assume I am talking out of my ass, but I am not. Don't put too much faith in your own imagination, it does have it's limits.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Some info that might be of interest.

Official Allison issued spec no.159-B revised 25 June 1942 (no RAM) for the V-1710-73:

1325 BHP (3000 rpm at 51"Hg) for TO upto 5 min (No mention of WEP but by the chart 51"Hg would have been possible upto ~6,000 ft)
1150 BHP (3000 rpm at 42"Hg) for Mil at 12,000 ft

This was increased. WEP was raised to 60" at 3,000 RPM for 1550 HP

see http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-40/P-40K_V-1710-73_specific_engine_flight_chart.jpg

Official AM/RR revised boost for the Merlin XX/21/22/23 as of June 1942 (no RAM)

1470/1350 BHP (3000 rpm at 58.4"Hg/+14 lb) for WEP at ~6,250/12,750 ft in Low/High gear
1245/1135 BHP (3000 rpm at 48.2"Hg/+9 lb) for Mil at 11,800/18,250 ft in Low/High gear

The RAF began in-service testing of 62.5"Hg/+16 lb for the Merlin XX series (High gear) and the Merlin 45 in June 1942. This was subsequently given the official OK in November 1942. Power at SC change from Low to High gear was 1400 BHP at ~8,000 ft.
In-service testing was also begun for use of 58.4"Hg/+14 lb for TO in the Merlin XX series about the same time. This was also given the official OK in November 1942.

The increased WEP boost levels (to 61" Hg) were also approved for the P-40F/L see http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-40/P-40F_V-1650-1_specific_engine_flight_chart.jpg

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-40/P-40N-RAAF.pdf

They have the A29-412 as a P-40N but the US books show it as a P-40M.
Their description of the A29-418 as a P-40N-5 seems to line up with most descriptions of the P-40N-1.

A29-412 was P-40N-1 42-104825 and A29-418 was P-40N-5 42-104833 as per the RAAF aircraft history cards.

In this interview, Bobby Gibbes described an incident where he had a Kittyhawk III which had a little more power available than some Kittyhawk II's he was leading.

Sepik Pilot by James Sinclair (no relation) is a Bobby Gibbes biography, first published in 1971.

The Bf109 shoot down was on 29 October 1942 in the biography, 28 October in the squadron history and in Shores et al. flying Kittyhawk III FR305, recorded as RAAF 3 squadron's 200th kill. No altitude given, 18 Baltimore and 6 B-25 bombers, 12 USAAF P-40 escort, 6 RAAF P-40 "top cover", plus 4 Spitfires "patrolled above" the bomber formation. FR305 was P-40K-1 42-45895, taken on RAF Charge 14 August 1942. The other P-40 were AK995, AK924, (Kittyhawk I) EV171, EV167 and ET513 (Kittyhawk IA). P/O Bray is reported to have followed the enemy aircraft down from 16,000 feet. On 27 October top cover resulted in the squadron "forced to fly at 19,000 feet and some pilots had difficulty keeping up with formation."

When it came to equipment 3 RAAF squadron drew from RAF stocks in the Middle East and was treated the same as the RAF and SAAF units in theatre.

Session expired | RecordSearch | National Archives of Australia

recordsearch.naa.gov.au

3 squadron history as the search string. Series A9186 Control Symbols 6, 9, 10 and 11 are the history sheets, look at them a page at a time or click on the file title to bring up the PDF download option. Also Series A9435 Control Symbol 3.

P-40K, 551 delivered for USAAF (14 earmarked for China), 44 Australia, 30 Brazil, 339 Britain, 22 New Zealand, 314 USSR.

P-40M, 115 delivered for USAAF, 96 Australia, 10 Brazil, 94 Britain, 170 Britain for USSR, 15 Canada, 15 China, 35 New Zealand, 50 USSR.

P-40F, K, L, M, N given RAF serials, which means they include SAAF aircraft, but not RAAF, RCAF, RNZAF

Mark	II	III	IV	Total
P-40F	150​			150​
P-40K-1		191​		191​
P-40K-5		52​		52​
P-40K-10		46​		46​
P-40K-15		50​		50​
P-40L-5	58​			58​
P-40L-10	42​			42​
P-40M-5		50​		50​
P-40M-10		44​		44​
P-40N-1			56​	56​
P-40N-20			200​	200​
P-40N-5			150​	150​
P-40N-15			50​	50​
Total	250​	433​	456​	1139​
Lost At Sea	21​	8​	15​	44​
Middle East	227​	420​	385​	1032​
SAAF		5​	55​	60​
UK	2​		1​	3​
Total	250​	433​	456​	1139​

Taken on charge dates, RAF P-40.

Month

F

K-1

K-5

K-10

K-15

L-5

L-10

M-5

M-10

N-1

N-5

N-15

N-20

Total

194205​

12​

12​

194206​

29​

29​

194207​

0​

194208​

9​

80​

89​

194209​

76​

88​

1​

165​

194210​

1​

33​

34​

194211​

5​

5​

3​

38​

51​

194212​

16​

14​

1​

8​

14​

53​

194301​

3​

1​

34​

1​

39​

194302​

2​

3​

5​

10​

194303​

1​

1​

56​

33​

91​

194304​

3​

1​

16​

27​

47​

194305​

1​

42​

1​

44​

194306​

1​

4​

5​

194307​

1​

7​

4​

12​

12​

36​

194308​

7​

3​

10​

194309​

1​

20​

21​

194310​

37​

89​

49​

28​

203​

194311​

1​

42​

43​

194312​

5​

17​

10​

32​

194401​

76​

76​

194402​

7​

28​

35​

194404​

4​

4​

194405​

4​

2​

6​

194406​

1​

1​

194407​

0​

194408​

0​

194409​

0​

194410​

3​

3​

Total

150​

191​

52​

46​

50​

58​

42​

50​

44​

56​

150​

50​

200​

1139​

This was actually a really big issue in the Med. The reason they started fitting bombs to Kittyhawks and Hurricanes is in fact largely because of complaints by pilots like Clive Caldwell about escorting such aircraft as Blenheim bombers, which (purportedly) had a cruise speed of about 95 knots.

Later they were escorting aircraft like Martin Baltimores and Douglas Bostons which had a quite high cruise speed and could accelerate to much higher speeds when danger threatened. After they dropped their ordinance they would go into a shallow dive at full throttle to exit the area.

Cruising speeds with the first being economical, at 15,000 feet, Blenheim mark I 165/230 mph, mark IV 170/235 mph, Boston II 165-175/243, Maryland 160-170/242

 

[don4331]

This was actually a really big issue in the Med. The reason they started fitting bombs to Kittyhawks and Hurricanes is in fact largely because of complaints by pilots like Clive Caldwell about escorting such aircraft as Blenheim bombers, which (purportedly) had a cruise speed of about 95 knots. Flying along above a flight of Blenheims at this speed was basically a death sentence for the escort. However fighter bombers couldn't fly super fast with a bomb either and a lot of them got jumped down low especially if the high cover missed the enemy fighters.

Later they were escorting aircraft like Martin Baltimores and Douglas Bostons which had a quite high cruise speed and could accelerate to much higher speeds when danger threatened. After they dropped their ordinance they would go into a shallow dive at full throttle to exit the area.

Bristol Blenheim's cruise speed is 170+kn (exact figure dependent on bombload, range to target, etc, etc)

Cruise of Baltimore is only 195kn - faster but not that much. Boston is in a different league with 240kn cruise but it has almost double the power too.

Flying at the bomber's cruise speed was death sentence no matter how fast the bomber. Fighters needed to be free roaming ahead of the bombers whether Bf.109 ahead of He.111 in BoB or P-51s ahead of B-17s.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

As far as the cruise speed of the Blenheim, I'm just going by what Caldwell said. I guess the actual speed depends on the bomb load and distance to the target. But they were basically replaced by fighter-bombers and they did phase out their use in the MTO pretty quickly (Blenheims). They got slaughtered. I think most of the ones in Theater were MK IVs. Aside from fighter-bombers the DAF started relying initially more and more on a South African Maryland unit, and then later Baltimores and Bostons, all of which were much faster.

Sounds like I was wrong about what the rest of 3 RAAF was flying! Mea Culpa. So I went and got a book down from the shelf.

According to Squadrons publication No 18, "The Curtiss Kittyhawk - Mk II" (page 7) No. 3 RAAF sqn didn't start getting Kitty Mk IIs until just a few days after this incident, in early November of 1942. They also mention the Kitty III / P-40K FR305 flown by Gibbes. The book says that they were 'fully equipped with Mk IIs by 17 November."

They mention incidentally they flew a mission that same day, a fighter sweep together with 112 RAF, flying at 2,000 feet. They encountered three Bf 109 of II. / JG.27. One Bf 109 was shot down by Gibbes and F/L R.R. Smith of 112 RAF, while another 109 collided with a Kitty flown by P/W/ J.W. Upwards.

Just below this (on page 8) the book mentions that "Because of a lack of Mk IIs, the squadron received two Mk III's (FL 901 and FR 112) and one theater transfer US P-40K (42-45791) two days later as reinforcements, but they would son become part of an exchange with 260 RAF for Mk IIs on the 16th."

This is the kind of horse trading that was going on which I mentioned earlier. 260 RAF was the only other British / Commonwealth unit in the Western Desert to receive Kityhawk IIs.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Mine was an educated guess, and I told you why. You don't know me so it's understandable that you assume I am talking out of my ass, but I am not. Don't put too much faith in your own imagination, it does have it's limits.

Good discussions but please limit your banter and be respectable. Thank you!

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

My apologies to Shortround6, I got a little carried away. My point is with historical data, there are always surprises, we can't be certain just based on extrapolation of production figures and the like. I was wrong on part of this too.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

According to Squadrons publication No 18, "The Curtiss Kittyhawk - Mk II" (page 7) No. 3 RAAF sqn didn't start getting Kitty Mk IIs until just a few days after this incident, in early November of 1942. They also mention the Kitty III / P-40K FR305 flown by Gibbes. The book says that they were 'fully equipped with Mk IIs by 17 November."

They mention incidentally they flew a mission that same day, a fighter sweep together with 112 RAF, flying at 2,000 feet. They encountered three Bf 109 of II. / JG.27. One Bf 109 was shot down by Gibbes and F/L R.R. Smith of 112 RAF, while another 109 collided with a Kitty flown by P/W/ J.W. Upwards.

Just below this (on page 8) the book mentions that "Because of a lack of Mk IIs, the squadron received two Mk III's (FL 901 and FR 112) and one theater transfer US P-40K (42-45791) two days later as reinforcements, but they would son become part of an exchange with 260 RAF for Mk IIs on the 16th."

Try the squadron history. 17 November 1942 the weather was bad, the early mission was forced down to 3,000 feet and then split into smaller formations to hunt enemy aircraft in and out of the clouds. The afternoon mission was to patrol a road and strafe vehicles, which is when the air combat took place. Plenty of similar missions.

2 November Kittyhawk mark II arrive in narrative but 3 November in operations list, early serials, FL291, FL294, FL301, FL306, FL323, FL345, FL352, FL366
4 November last mention of FR305

15 November 1942, Transfer flight to Gazala Sat II, S/L R.H Gibbes, 1035, aircraft ME109G (another transfer flight on 19th). ET951, ET899 and AK626 also
transferred, no further mention from the 17th onwards of mark I and IA. Other serials FL335, FL262, FL348, FL345, FL317, FL323, FL318, FL294, FL306, FL309

18 November FL335 crash landed at Tmimi, damaged by AA fire, no further mention of this serial
2 December On A.O.C. orders Me109G flown to Heliopolis by S/L R.H Gibbes
8 December P/O. R.V. Pfeiffer flew the Me109F to Gazala.
10 December FL901, FR112 and 245791 (42-45791) received, P-40K/Mark III
13 December FR112 and FL901 used operationally
14 December FL901 used operationally.
15 December FR112, FR335 (remembering FL335 above, FR335 is mark III, FL335 mark II) and Kitty3 used on operations.
16 December FR112 and Kitty3 on operations, 4 mark III to 260 Squadron, for 4 mark II, next day 1 more mark II from 260 squadron.

FL901 and FR112 have taken on charge dates of 1 December, FR335 18 September 1942.

 

[DarrenW]

Nevertheless, the F4F was the fighter which bore the brunt of the fighting in the Pacific, along with P-40 and P-39, through the tipping point of the war almost to the end of 1943. F4U came in slowly in small numbers, a long with an even smaller number of P-38s, F6F wasn't really in the field until the end of 43 (first combat, against a flying boat, was in September, but the first real engagement was 23 November at Tarawa).

This is exactly why I would never recommend Wikipedia as one's primary source for information.

By August 1943 the Hellcat was the primary shipboard fighter of the US Navy, reducing the number of Wildcat units considerably. There were also land-based F6F units in the Solomons which saw extensive service through the months leading up to the Tarawa Campaign.

I won't go into detail here concerning the missions undertook by F6F FITRONS during the September through mid-November 1943 time frame, as this is not the main topic of the thread. But it must be understood that Hellcat units were far from sitting idle during this two and one half month period of time.

 

[SaparotRob]

Yet another thing I wasn't aware of. I thought it was the end of 1943.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

This is exactly why I would never recommend Wikipedia as one's primary source for information.

I am disappointed to learn that I apparently give the impression that I rely on Wikipedia as a 'primary source' for anything. I've been linking sources...?

I have a whole bookshelf of WW2 books, just like I'm sure a lot of people in this forum do, including First Team and various others about the USN and USMC, IJN, IJA and the Pacific War. I admit I don't know that much about the early combat history of the F6F in 1943. What I remember reading was that a lot of them were on carriers in Hawaii etc. but not in action yet until the start of Winter. I'm Ok with being proven wrong!

By August 1943 the Hellcat was the primary shipboard fighter of the US Navy, reducing the number of Wildcat units considerably. There were also land-based F6F units in the Solomons which saw extensive service through the months leading up to the Tarawa Campaign.

I won't go into detail here concerning the missions undertook by F6F FITRONS during the September through mid-November 1943 time frame, as this is not the main topic of the thread. But it must be understood that Hellcat units were far from sitting idle during this two and one half month period of time.

This thread has already drifted. I for one would be glad to learn of the detailed combat history of the F6F from Sept - Dec 1943. I doubt anyone else would object.

However.

The point I was making was that while the Hellcat is the better of the two fighters, the Wildcat was actually more important during the key pivotal battles in the Pacific Theater in WW2.
What do I mean by pivotal? I think you can break down the Pacific War into four stages:

1 - Japanese expansion - The Japanese conquer Malaysia and the Philippines, destroy most of the large English and US surface warships in the Pacific etc.
2 - Japanese are checked - the Japanese are stopped at Milne Bay, Midway, Guadalcanal etc. Japanese suffer serious losses of warships and trained aircrew. The rapid conquests by Japanese army and marines are over.
3 - US beat down - US (and Aussies etc.) push back and begin to break Japanese bases, destroy large numbers of Japanese airfcraft. The IJN is thoroughly broken, US begins to retake Imperial Japanese islands conquered in stage 1
4 - Denouement - Allied forces reconquer the Philippines, and begin taking islands near Japan (Iwo Jima, Saipan, Okinawa), base heavy bombers and start the fire-bombing campaign

The Wildcat, P-39 and P-40 were basically the only fighters actively involved in phase 2. The Wildcat in particular was key in Coral Sea, Midway, and Guadalcanal. Army types were the main factor at Darwin, in Milne Bay / Southern Papua, and also played a role in the Solomons. All of these battles were already over months before Sept 1943. The Hellcat was a better fighter than a Wildcat, P-40 or P-39, and destroyed far more enemy aircraft than all of those did put together (at least in Western Allied service) but it came into play in stage 3 of the war: The beat down. But the pivot point had already passed. Japan was already on the defensive by late 1943, at least in my opinion.

 

[EwenS]

The last occasions when Wildcats were used operationally from US fleet carriers (CV) were:-

Pacific - invasion of New Georgia in July 1943 from the Saratoga (along with HMS Victorious aka USS Robin).

Atlantic - operations by the USS Ranger with the British Home Fleet between Aug & Nov 1943 including Operation Leader, a strike on shipping in Norwegian waters.

The last British fleet carrier to use the Wildcat operationally was Furious when a detachment of 4 went aboard in June 1944 to provide fighter cover during operations off Norway. The last squadron level deployment had been on Formidable at the beginning of Nov 1943 in operations to cover arctic convoys.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Right wildcats (FM1 and 2?) were being used a lot after that on the escort carriers though to the end of the war right?

I believe British Martlets / Wildcats tangled with Bf 109s around Norway didn't they?

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Also, I guess the US fleet carriers went back to Hawaii or California to get their Hellcats and do a period of training and familiarization with them during summer 1943?

 

[EwenS]

Right wildcats (FM1 and 2?) were being used a lot after that on the escort carriers though to the end of the war right?

I believe British Martlets / Wildcats tangled with Bf 109s around Norway didn't they?

The smaller USN CVE, Bogue and Casablanca classes, mostly used Wildcats to the end of WW2. Tulagi & Kasaan Bay operated Hellcats in the Med in Aug 44 during Operation Dragoon.

By Sept 44 Sangamons got Hellcats. Commencement Bays operational in WW2 mostly operated USMC Corsairs, plus some Hellcat night fighters.

In the RN the FM-1 was the Wildcat V. Available from late 1943. FM-2 was Wildcat VI available from mid 44.

Wildcats equipped the fighter flights on the ASW escort carriers in 44/45 especially on the arctic convoy routes and had their successes against Luftwaffe recce and bombers.

Also equipped squadrons on fighter carriers Searcher & Pursuer off Norway, and in Med & Aegean in 44/45. Last action by them was at beginning of May 45 against a u-boat depot ship in Norway. Away from the library at moment and can't remember details.

Searcher was the last to use Wildcat. She took 882 squadron to the Indian Ocean for Operation Zipper in Sept 1945. No combat there as it top place after Japanese surrender. It was quickest way to put boots on the ground as they were already loading in mid Aug.

RN began using Hellcats at end of 1943 with 2 squadrons on the escort carrier Emperor. Another 6 escort carriers got them late 1944 early 1945 for use in the Far East. And of course the fleet carrier Indomitable had them from mid 1944.