SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Really wouldn't need the range requirements of western and Japanese aircraft.
Advanced French Fighters vs 1942/1943 contemporaries
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Shortround6
Major General
Assuming that France survives at all there are a number of things that can be done to improve the existing planes.
The Butterflies are in full force, Huge numbers and operating in concert here.
All that has been stated is that France survives/doesn't surrender.
What are the British doing?
As in does Dunkirk happen or not?
BEF is still in France, battered but not needed quite the panic build of weapons of July, Aug Sept?
More "stuff" for the French?
Where is the French front line (it can shift a bit over time)?
How many factories lost?
Or evacuated?
BoB becomes the BoNF (battle of North France?)
Germans are stopped 110miles from Paris or 70 miles from Paris? or?
The Germans were running out of "stuff" but they hid it well. They would have needed several weeks (or over a month? 2 months) to get back to close to where they were at the start.
With the Germans facing a divided front for the Luftwaffe, there is some respite for the French, not much and it depends on the British taking a more active role in the air war over France/Belgium.
The planes from the US start to show up over the summer but in quantities needed it is not quite a major improvement. Some of them also need a work. Like the P-40s. French may pull the .50s and mount their own machine guns.
German renewed offensive also stalls out in large summer/early fall. Situation on the ground is????
Are the British going to export machine tools into France to set up factories? Back to US supplied tools.
RR Scottish factory was started in Aug 1939, Delivered first engine in April 1940. Ceremonial engine or start of a trickle?
Flood would come later. Packard took 11 months from first engine to hitting target production figures.
French can build one of anything, building 25 a month is a different page, building 500 a month is a different book in a different library.
The Butterflies are in full force, Huge numbers and operating in concert here.
All that has been stated is that France survives/doesn't surrender.
What are the British doing?
As in does Dunkirk happen or not?
BEF is still in France, battered but not needed quite the panic build of weapons of July, Aug Sept?
More "stuff" for the French?
Where is the French front line (it can shift a bit over time)?
How many factories lost?
Or evacuated?
BoB becomes the BoNF (battle of North France?)
Germans are stopped 110miles from Paris or 70 miles from Paris? or?
The Germans were running out of "stuff" but they hid it well. They would have needed several weeks (or over a month? 2 months) to get back to close to where they were at the start.
With the Germans facing a divided front for the Luftwaffe, there is some respite for the French, not much and it depends on the British taking a more active role in the air war over France/Belgium.
The planes from the US start to show up over the summer but in quantities needed it is not quite a major improvement. Some of them also need a work. Like the P-40s. French may pull the .50s and mount their own machine guns.
German renewed offensive also stalls out in large summer/early fall. Situation on the ground is????
Are the British going to export machine tools into France to set up factories? Back to US supplied tools.
RR Scottish factory was started in Aug 1939, Delivered first engine in April 1940. Ceremonial engine or start of a trickle?
Flood would come later. Packard took 11 months from first engine to hitting target production figures.
French can build one of anything, building 25 a month is a different page, building 500 a month is a different book in a different library.
- Thread starter
- #183
To be honest? I didn't really think that far in advance. It's part of why I suggested the non-embargo option since it's simpler.
But if I was to give it my best shot, it'd be this:
France stops Germany and Italy from Aimens, Reims, Dijon, Lyon, Avignon and Marseille. These areas are the major front lines, ebbing back and forth. Germany still captures Alsace-Lorraine, Italy still takes control of Savoy and the majority of Provence up to Avignon and Marseille.
This allows Dunkirk to still happen and for Germany to get their jumping-off point for the Battle of Britain as the battle in France grinds to a halt.
I can't seem to find a detailed map plotting the factories that are in or near this zone, let's be generous and say that it's a 60/40 ratio for factories being evacuated and factories being lost.
This is about the best I could theorize for 1940 with my admittedly limited knowledge of the French front. I tried to keep things as true to events in real life (Dunkirk, Battle of Britain) without sacrificing the theoretical (France survives).
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Shortround6
Major General
Thank you.
I think you are giving too much credit to the Italians or not enough to the French. Actual land occupied before armistice seems to have been 20 km or under and only in spots. Granted it was the Alps. How much further they could have gotten?
As I see it a problem for better French aircraft is the need for retaining the factories or most of them, This would also include the factories making the armies weapons. Better French fighters/bombers were not going to keep the Germans from advancing on their own. Getting French factory locations takes work.
The thing with the British is that if a large part of France is still fighting the Germans there won't be any BoB. The Germans cannot do both, or they could but that would violate every principle the Germans used. They cannot use hundreds of planes to attack England while still using hundreds to keep up pressure on the French army. Germans had lost hundreds of planes in the attack on France and the low countries as it was.
Not saying there wouldn't be some raids but that wouldn't last long. British air defense is going to handle small raids very harshly.
As I mentioned earlier, my opinion is that the British would be a better position to aid the French air industry If Dunkirk doesn't happen. A large part of the BEF is part of the forces defending Aimens, with most of their transport and heavy weapons. This relives some of the pressure to re-equipp the historic BEF and frees up a bit of industrial capacity for other things. Some of which may be aid to France (at least ammunition).
A lot depends on how the land battle goes and if the British think things will stabilize or if it just goes to pot a few weeks later.
France has got to be seen as a going concern (still in business) or Britain and the US are not going to be shipping engines, air frames, weapons, machine tools or technology (plans for better engines) to France.
France simply surviving (gets a better deal in the surrender) is not going to get the better French aircraft you are looking for. The Germans are not going to march away to the east leaving an angry France at the their back with a viable air force, army and industrial capability. There isn't going to be a ceasefire for 2 years while France builds back up to re-enter the fight in 1942-43 with better equipment.
I think you are giving too much credit to the Italians or not enough to the French. Actual land occupied before armistice seems to have been 20 km or under and only in spots. Granted it was the Alps. How much further they could have gotten?
As I see it a problem for better French aircraft is the need for retaining the factories or most of them, This would also include the factories making the armies weapons. Better French fighters/bombers were not going to keep the Germans from advancing on their own. Getting French factory locations takes work.
The thing with the British is that if a large part of France is still fighting the Germans there won't be any BoB. The Germans cannot do both, or they could but that would violate every principle the Germans used. They cannot use hundreds of planes to attack England while still using hundreds to keep up pressure on the French army. Germans had lost hundreds of planes in the attack on France and the low countries as it was.
Not saying there wouldn't be some raids but that wouldn't last long. British air defense is going to handle small raids very harshly.
As I mentioned earlier, my opinion is that the British would be a better position to aid the French air industry If Dunkirk doesn't happen. A large part of the BEF is part of the forces defending Aimens, with most of their transport and heavy weapons. This relives some of the pressure to re-equipp the historic BEF and frees up a bit of industrial capacity for other things. Some of which may be aid to France (at least ammunition).
A lot depends on how the land battle goes and if the British think things will stabilize or if it just goes to pot a few weeks later.
France has got to be seen as a going concern (still in business) or Britain and the US are not going to be shipping engines, air frames, weapons, machine tools or technology (plans for better engines) to France.
France simply surviving (gets a better deal in the surrender) is not going to get the better French aircraft you are looking for. The Germans are not going to march away to the east leaving an angry France at the their back with a viable air force, army and industrial capability. There isn't going to be a ceasefire for 2 years while France builds back up to re-enter the fight in 1942-43 with better equipment.
- Thread starter
- #185
I'm not exactly trying to "give credit", my knowledge of large-scale war planning and tactics is limited and I'm not very privy to how the Italian ground army squares up versus the French ground army.
I subscribe to the time traveller method when it comes to alternate history; change as little as possible with the real event while still making the theoretical viable. If any of these aren't possible, it might be worthwhile to start theorizing about the non-embargo route.
Look at a map !
Marseille and Avignon? If it's to stop the Germans, it's much, much too far south. If it's to stop the Italians, it's too far west - in June 1940, Mussolini's troops went no further than Menton and were stopped before Briançon. Don't forget that the Maginot Line was continued over the Alps and was not crossed there.
Don't forget that the Maginot Line was continued over the Alps and was not crossed there. (bis)
If the Italian troops were unable to cross Alps during summer monthes, what could they do in winter ?
Shortround6
Major General
It is a crap load of butteryflies no matter what route.
For the non-embargo route the French and Germans have to get along much better than they did historically in June of 1940. Maybe the French can agree to send 4-5 divisions with French Equipment to the German Army (somewhere other than France?).
The Romanian IAR 80
IAR 80 - Wikipedia
is rather instructive. It is about the same size and weight as many of the 1940 French fighters and used a licensed GR 14 engine, improved several times. The Romanians, who's relationship with Germans changed back and forth during WW II, often could not get the Germans to supply either guns or engines. Even with Romanian units fighting in Russia and with the Romanian air force helping defend Ploesti.
I find it difficult to swallow premise that allows a French state, like Vichy, to develop and produce weapons in numbers, for the Germans, their allies and their client states with more freedom and cooperation that Romania got.
Maybe it was short sighted of the Germans, But having a "Vichy like state" on the southern border of the German empire cranking out dozens of war planes a month (and other stuff) without direct German control seems very, very trusting.
Granted the GR 14 as used by the Romanians and Soviets ran into a stone wall as far as development went (they didn't get to the 14R). The IAR is a useful comparison to the Bloch radial engine fighter as to speed/performance and weapons.
As far as a French/Japanese connection goes, Perhaps the Japanese might have been interested in French technical details but moving production examples of anything bigger than machine guns/light automatic cannon was not going to happen. Not without the Axis taking over the eastern Med, the Suez/Red sea and the Gulf of Aden. It is around 3300 miles from the Gulf of Aden to the mouth of the Malacca Straight. Which would quite enough for surface ships to try to get through.
Helping supply Italy and some of the eastern European client states would at least be doable from the logistics stand point. Now figure out if the items (aircraft engines, airframes, guns, tanks, artillery etc) would be competing with German/Italian production for raw materials. And/or how much French labor was left in place and how much was transferred to Germany already (historically)
- Thread starter
- #188
German control would definitely still be there don't get me wrong, France just wouldn't be forbidden from improving their designs and equipment.
In regards to this particular topic, France would still be allowed to produce and develop the later 12Y's and the 12Z, strengthen and improve their aircraft's frames and wings, and do other things like that. But the major thing I've been thinking about is this next point:
France and Italy is a pretty strong pairing when you think about it.
Italy's major weakness (incompetency of the Big Man in charge notwithstanding) was its poor industrial-base and lack of resources, they had some very strong designs that they either couldn't get into production or couldn't produce in enough numbers due to the aforementioned aspects.
France had a strong industrial base and plentiful resources, but generally lagged behind on the design front.
Italian designs with French industry is a mighty combination that has the potential to shore up the weaknesses of each other. Not to mention that Italy and France don't have the same level of antagonism that France and Germany had around this point, as the Vichy regime was very friendly towards Italy and general public outlook towards the Italians was much more favourable. That's not to say there wasn't any, but compared to the Germans it was much tamer.
France could produce:
- The Cannone da 90/53 and Cannone da 75/46 CA
- The Series 5 Fighters
- The Alfa Romeo 135 (with the 100 octane fuel it was designed for)
- The M1942 Sosso pistol
- The Beretta Model 38 (a personal favourite and my choice for best SMG of the war)
And many more in numbers greater than Italy ever could. The proximity between France and Italy along with the ease of logistics, the friendly relations, and the situations of both nations allow for a capable combination of powers.
Goes without saying - any additional info about the 14R would've been appreciated. It is one the most misunderstood engine designs of ww2.
Shortround6
Major General
You still need the raw materials.
Was France sitting stacks of Iron and Coal just waiting for the Germans order something or were the Germans trying to get the French to ship steel from French iron ore works/steel mills to German factories (or French ones) even to make cooking pots or truck fenders. The French were trying to slow down production to the minimum that would just keep the Germans from stealing the machinery and transporting the workers to Germany. Suddenly producing hundreds of tons of war material under subcontract to France?
For high quality steel and parts you often need exotic elements to make the alloys. Like the manganese, nickel and chromium that Germany could not get for their own engine and armor production. Maybe there was some sitting in a few French warehouses, but the French using that to build high quality stuff for the Italians after not giving it to the Germans? Not going to go well.
French designers may have been pretty good, but designers don't set policy/requirements. If the customer says they want a 10 ton tank that goes under 30kph and has a 37mm gun that needs twice the power even to be called a "pop" gun, that is what the designers build. Offering a 14 ton tank that goes 40kph and has a 47mm gun (even a weak one) is too expensive and has zero chance of being ordered. Same for most other French weapons. From pistols to Fighters to heavy artillery.
And by the way, the Alfa 135 was pretty much a disaster. Let's also look at the basic specifications. It was two Bristol Mercury engines stuck together. It might have been hot stuff in 1935. French would have been better off trying to make a G-R 18N in 1939-41. At least the French engines didn't have the valve springs flapping around in the breeze and using 4-5 grease fittings on each cylinder head.
France has no ability to to supply 100 octane fuel, either to themselves or to the Italians. They may have been able to import it up until June of 1940 but without a domestic source of supply and domestic refining French 100 octane in the war years is not happening, UNLESS, the Germans give them a synthetic fuel plant to run? In which case why not give the fuel plant to their allies, the Italians, to begin with?
It's funny that it was a French engineer who invented the catalytic cracking that became the primary process for producing 100-octane gasoline in the United States. But the French government failed to evaluate the invention's potential properly...
The Soviets were able to achieve 1550 hp on the improved M-89 (GR 14Kdrs). I suspect that the main development problems of the Soviet descendants of the 14K were rather staff related - some design bureau employees were repressed, the head designer was repeatedly changed.
Shortround6
Major General
I would note that the M-89 gained about 120-150KG over the M-88 depending on exact model/s. Adding 17% Plus weight to the engine and not adding a 2 stage supercharger is a very substantial increase. I would note that the the Late G-R 14Ns were running about 50Kg more than the G-R 14Ks. The Soviets had been increasing the out-put of the N-85, M-86, and M-87 before they got to the M-88 but that jump from the M-88 to the M-89 was bigger than all the other increases put together. Indeed the weight of the M-89 was within 10-25kg of the postwar French G-R 14R.
Not saying the Soviets didn't have trouble with staffing. They also seem to have been doing a rather substantial modification to the basic engine.
815kg/1550hp(according to Kotelnikov) for the M-89 vs. 814kg/1590hp (according to Wiki) for the 14R - the difference is negligible.
By adding 19% weight, a 40% power gain (compared to the M-88B) was achieved.
Really? A reference would be appreciated.
A reference would be appreciated.
This is the reason...
...and this is the consequence.
Shortround6
Major General
Several, but they are not primary sources.
1938 edition of "Jane's All the Worlds Aircraft" and several editions of Wilkinson for the French engines.
Weights for the Soviet engines are from Kotelnikov.
For the M-85 it starts at 600kg and goes through 610kg, 640kg, and tops out at 684kg for the M-88B. Even with an M-89 (early) at 800kg that is 116kg increase just between the M-88B and the M-89.
The American R-18320s and R-1830s also gained weight. They both had significant rebuilds. R-1820 rebuilds were often near total. Hercules had at least one and maybe two rebuilds? (new crankshaft with new bearings in a new crankcase, just better cylinder fins was almost a minor tweak for radials).
I don't worry about 10-20kg differences between countries as there may be differences in things like carbs or pumps or magnetos or minor differences in crankcase castings.
Wright managed a very small increase going from the 1700hp R-2600 to the 1900hp R-2600 but they had redone the entire engine. It took several years and required a new way of putting fins on cylinders that had never been done before. The Early 1600hp engines used forged aluminum crankcases, the 1900hp ones used forged steel. Not sure what the 1700hp versions used. The Steel crankcases were much stronger and might have weighed less. Wright had used steel crankcases on the later R-1820 engines.
But this means you can get steel forgings in quantity and quality. And have the machinery to turn the steel forgings into finished crankcases without taking much extra time.
There is a lot of behind the scenes stuff happening in making these engines.
Here we are : (Right column is post-war engines, some with reinforced crankcase and crankshaft)
Attachments
Thanks! Wilkinson gives a different figure of 750 kg for the 14N-48, and wikipedia gives no more than 528 kg in the specs for the 14Ks. That was the reason for my question. I wonder what accounted for such a big difference in the figures?
Wilkinson gives 750 kg for the 14N-48.
Thanks, but my question concerned the data on the French engines only.Wilkinson gives 750 kg for the 14N-48.
Yes, I knew this strange "750kg" .... But Wilkinson is full of errors - The so-said 14R picture is a 14N, and 18P picture is a 18L...
For Wikipédia, the french notice (that I wrote...) gives 570 kg.
The documents in post 196 are officials from G&R.
Shortround6
Major General
Thank you.
The 1938 Janes (reprint) gives 536kg for a 14Kfs but that version is direct drive, no reduction gear. Possible source of confusion?
The 1938 Janes (reprint) also has a typo (?) as it gets the letters out of order (?) or leaves one out.
Trying to figure out the 14K letter code. I think the letter r in the 3rd position (K_r_ means reduction gear and s in last means supercharged?
Letter code maybe a hold over from the 7 and 9 cylinder engines?
In the 1946 edition of Wilkinson the 14N had gone on a diet and the -58 was now a svelte 620kg. Of course it had also lost 220hp at take-off from the 1941 edition as a -50
