"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (6 Viewers)

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javlin said:
You made partly an observation I have if it's going so good for Ukraine then why always more materials and eventually men?
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What does this even mean? I think you may have two or three points wrapped into one run-on question. But who's the question for? Me?

Ukraine is not asking for NATO troops. Russia has the second best army in Ukraine; they're not going to fight NATO as well. Our sons and daughters need not fear being dragged into this.
 
javlin said:
Not Ukraine but Europe and it's called escalation.
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Silly. We've had active-duty troops in Europe almost 80 years, and when sending troops to Poland or Germany in this crisis, we're simply ensuring that we can fulfill our treaty obligations. Or maybe you think we should not honor our own word?

This is not "escalation". This is you repeating scaremongering talking-points you've heard elsewhere. The readership here is not that naive.
 
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Shortly after Russia invaded Ukraine, additional U.S. troops were sent to Europe as well as U.S. fighter aircraft redeployed to bordering NATO countries.
The USN moved a carrier group to Italy and two AEGIS cruisers were deployed: one to the eastern Med and one to the Baltic.

So far, the only possible point of "escalation" between the U.S. and Russia, was when the Russians downed a U.S. UAV over the Black Sea - and nothing came of it.
 
javlin said:
You made partly an observation I have if it's going so good for Ukraine then why always more materials and eventually men?
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Nobody here has said things are going well for Ukraine. That said, they're doing a hell of a lot better than most people believed back in March last year.

As to why are they always asking for more materials? Ukraine is fighting an invading enemy whose military in 2022 was roughly four times the size of the defenders. Kyiv has been working hard to grow the size of the Ukrainian armed forces to try and expel the invading Russian forces, all the while having to replace combat casualties.

Hate to break it to you but war inevitably consumes resources. A war composed of 17 months of high-intensity conflict is going to consume a LOT of resources. The nearest American comparisons are Vietnam and Korea...and look at the scale of resources America put into those wars.
 
javlin said:
I am not particularly anxious for my Son to become involved/killed in another Industrial Military Complex War that we have endured since the 50's one after another.It continues to escalate.
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So it's the military-industrial complex that persuaded Russia to invade Ukraine?

NATO has steadfastly held to its defensive mandate. To do otherwise plays directly into Putin's hands.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "it continues to escalate." I'd suggest Korea, Vietnam, the Cuban Missile Crisis etc. were far more escalatory than anything NATO is doing today.

If the West were to ignore Russia's invasion, it would simply encourage more aggression. Putin understands power and strength. He doesn't listen to reason or to compromise. It was Putin who escalated by invading Ukraine. Blaming NATO for responding is ludicrous...and yet the response has been measured and has not violated the purpose of the North Atlantic Treaty.
 

I'd also point out that the phrase "eventually men" is loading the argument. I've yet to read of one American politician seriously suggesting sending one single platoon over to fight in Ukraine.

Again, scaremongering. The technical term is "slippery-slope fallacy."
 
The other reason Ukraine is continually asking for more has been answered. They are using what is sent and some of it is
lost or needs maintenance at certain times.

At this stage Ukraine doesn't have enough to force major confrontation as they need backup inventory to carry anything through.
This is exactly where Russian went wrong in the first place. Ukrainian strategy is being devised by wiser heads.

Russia may have more troops but they are losing more. Ukraine is already passing parity with Russia in tank numbers and outmatches
in the capabilities of many of those tanks.

Russian units are being supplied in a backwards manner with older equipment while Ukraine is getting equipment that is generations
ahead.

As far as the long term goes by the time Ukraine is ready to hit hard Russia will be down to dregs.
 
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Though several Eastern European countries are considering it.

I can only imagine the conversations going on behind the curtain, trying to persuade them not to, for obvious reasons - but that these countries are willing and itching to do it, speaks volumes.
 
A question for our US forum members.

I notice that some perfectly reasonable and funcional US members see the support for Ukrainia as a path that the US (and the west) should not go and this war is not our business at all. And I'm not talking about the prototipical lurking troll but members that are very active and noticiable.

Is there any 'new isolationism' trend going in the US?

Mods, if this post is deemed too political, feel free to delete it, of course.
 
Just about everyone I know here in California is 100% behind Ukraine.

I habe even seen Ukrainian flags, bumperstickers and such around the area.
 
No one I know. I haven't actually taken a poll.
 
In answer to this there are those here in Australia saying the same things as well.

The majority here is all for giving as much help to Ukraine as possible but some are saying it isn't our business
as we have homelessness on the rise and other problems here (which is true but always ongoing). They are
generally sure they are right but it isn't really isolationist - rather more emotive.

I try to tell them that there is a bigger picture here as what Ukraine is going through can spread if we don't
help to stop it. There is a threat more direct to us in this context and we have to work against that.

I also ask them to consider the innocent victims in Ukraine and how many of them have nothing as they are now
homeless. The other argument is that the cost of helping in material terms to Australia is very low but the long
term stakes are very high.

If anyone tries to say it is still only a local problem between Ukraine and Russia it is worth pointing out the Russian
financed 'operations' going on in African countries right now (Wagner group in Central African Republic (CAR), Libya, Mali, and Sudan).
Many people don't know this but have seen the results on the news.

Finally, I point out the rise of Asian economies since the dissolving of the Soviet Union's influence since the early nineties.
You can have one or the other.
 
You do realise that Atlantic Resolve has been going on since 2014? This is nothing new, it's been happening for nearly a decade.

If I were you I'd question my sources and ask why they're trying to make something routine appear different.
 

I'm not US citizen, though I was US resident some 20+ years ago (IRS still remembers me, lol). A lot has changed but I guess it still holds that Californians or Bostonians my have a very different POV than Ohio or Texas residents.
I guess somehow you are indirectly trying to make a poll (a rather small one by the way) . Maybe those relatively recent ones (June 2023) can provide a bigger picture:

Wide partisan divisions remain in Americans’ views of the war in Ukraine

Republicans are far more likely than Democrats to say the United States is providing too much support to Ukraine (42% vs. 13%).
www.pewresearch.org

Most Americans Still Support Ukraine War Effort

Before a short-lived rebellion in Russia, most Americans said the U.S. should continue supporting Ukraine and saw the war locked in a stalemate.
news.gallup.com
 
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