Greg Boeser
1st Lieutenant
It sounds like a lot of hand wringing because the US is adopting a more pragmatic approach in Ukraine. As Louis XVI found out, bankrupting your country bankrolling a foreign war has consequences.
"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (13 Viewers)
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SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Pragmaticism would be putting the final nail in the coffin of our existential threat without us firing a shot. The U.S. was not being bankrupted by this war. We were profiting from it. We have, however, become morally bankrupt.
MiTasol
Captain
You are forgetting the first question.
Where will they get nukes?
US will not provide them because they may be used to target the US or Russia
Russia will not provide them because they may be used to target Russia or the US
Snautzer01
Marshal
- 46,292
- Mar 26, 2007
Now now... first read.https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/national-debt/
Than add help, deduct benifits.
Then read up on history on why giving biljons gave the usa the prosper it had after ww1 and 2. Bank rolling ww1 and 2 and if that was not enough the Marshall plan and etc etc. Mind you that was with intrest. Mostly political Even the ussr payed for the lead lease, last payment 1971.
Usa is not getting bankrupt for a few billions.
It is getting benifits from it too.
Bankrolling foreign wars is the turbo engine what made america great. ( thank any god for that i might add).
I made go employment economic growth and influence to great highs.
I am not out on a discussion here as this will get political faster then light. So this will be it for this.
But perhaps read a bit out of the comfort zone.
MiTasol
Captain
You and others.
cammerjeff
Staff Sergeant
Don't the British and the French already have Nukes, like for the last 60 years or so? Or did they give them up like Ukraine for assurances of boarder security?
MiTasol
Captain
I wonder how long before the Europeans and other nations that believe Ukraine has a right to self determination start calling the new world power centre of the United Kremlin and Pentagon the axis of evil
Admiral Beez
Major
For British and French defence only. And Britain relies on the US for its Trident missiles.Don't the British and the French already have Nukes, like for the last 60 years or so? Or did they give them up like Ukraine for assurances of boarder security?
buffnut453
Captain
The US is not being bankrupted by supporting Ukraine. In fact, support for Ukraine is generating good, technology-based manufacturing jobs in the US.
The EU + UK are collectively providing more support for Ukraine. Several nations, including Canada, Germany and the UK, are providing a greater percentage of their GDPs in support of Ukraine than is the US. None of those nations are being "bankrupted" by supporting Ukraine.
Thus far, this has been a team effort with the democratic western nations working together against aggressive authoritarian regimes. It's the same pattern that democratic nations have followed since WW2, garnering the longest period of relative peace and prosperity for the West in history. Unfortunately, throwing these norms aside will result in Ukraine being sacrificed and may break up NATO...which is exactly what Putin and Xi want.
Look at the history prior to 1946 where individual treaties led to countries falling into both WW1 and WW2. The breakup of NATO risks going back to those conditions where individual nations weren't strong enough, on their own, to defend themselves against aggressive authoritarian regimes. I fear that's the direction we're currently headed.
In closing, "pragmatism" = sacrifice of Ukraine to Putin.
I'm going to shut up now.
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fubar57
General
Possibly my last post here.....
www.cbc.ca
Ukrainian president says Trudeau is expected to visit Ukraine on Monday | CBC News
The Prime Minister’s Office says Justin Trudeau spoke with U.S. President Donald Trump on Saturday about the war in Ukraine and Canada’s efforts to combat fentanyl flowing through the Canada-U.S. border.
Snautzer01
Marshal
- 46,292
- Mar 26, 2007
And with what exactly is Russia coming to invade Europe? The 3 tanks they have left? .Those do it yourself kits stick it with a bomb from, i kid you not, Iran? What happened with their Navy, Their super weapons like the Armata? those supersonic rockets? They killed a dog a grandma and a flat. Not a good plan.
On the battle field they need North Korea for support of parts ammo, and dear Stalin in heaven, people for the mincer. Cant get an attaboy from China that does find this war disrupting THEIR plans.
NATO is still trying to keep up a stiff lip. It so very obviously clear Russia is not the sovjet union. They can not even throw out an attack on their land. You understand the meaning of this?
They cant. Want to. Cant.
Hows that for an ex Bully trying to some muscle towards the West. Weapon industry is ramping up.
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buffnut453
Captain
Well, Russia has managed to keep throwing forces into the meat-grinder...and their military production is already ramped up compared to that of Europe. Even a modest pause of the fighting in Ukraine would benefit Russia's rebuilding efforts.
I'm not saying Russia will immediately start attacking European nations...but there are far fewer disincentives if the West can't get its act together, and especially if NATO implodes.
RogerdeLluria
Staff Sergeant
- 1,375
- Jul 5, 2015
UK (aprox 225 warheads) and France (around 300 operational nuclear warheads) already have them.
Spain had a nuclear program and the research stage was fully completed before Spain signed the NPT in 1987. It is said Spain could potentially develop a nuke in a very short time.
Project Islero - Wikipedia
Germany and Netherlands are considered threshold states. A nuclear threshold state is the condition of a country possessing all the technology, expertise and infrastructure needed to quickly develop nuclear weapons, without having actually yet done so.
Italy also had a nuclear program, but not sure how advanced they where when it was stopped.
As for the resources, many European countries have nuclear reactors. France in particular has 56 operational and one in construction.
Nuclear power reactors in Europe - Wikipedia
As a result Europe/EU have the resources, the technology, the know-how and the economy to produce a nuclear program rivaling US and China. The only reason there is not yet an Eurobomb is because there was never the political will nor the need to have it. But that seems to be changing rapidly.
Snautzer01
Marshal
- 46,292
- Mar 26, 2007
You see the weakness now don't you.
Its easy throwing in meat in a a dictorship.
How ever it very very obvious, although a lot of russian plant are said the be on war production, they are not making a dent in a pack of butter.
Its the hardware . And they can't fast enough nor have the trained people to fight or maintain them.
MiTasol
Captain
R
RogerdeLluria
That is good news but I feel far too optimistic.
You say It is said Spain could potentially develop a nuke in a very short time. but the question is how long is this short time. Five years?
We have seen that it has taken the best part of three years for most EU countries to ramp up non nuke production and they are way behind Russia on production growth.
Britain and France have not built nukes for ages and all the experienced staff and facilities are no longer available so again how quick could they restart. Again 5 years might be optimistic. It is not just throwing up the buildings and training the staff. Much of the tooling might be specialist and no longer available.
That is good news but I feel far too optimistic.
You say It is said Spain could potentially develop a nuke in a very short time. but the question is how long is this short time. Five years?
We have seen that it has taken the best part of three years for most EU countries to ramp up non nuke production and they are way behind Russia on production growth.
Britain and France have not built nukes for ages and all the experienced staff and facilities are no longer available so again how quick could they restart. Again 5 years might be optimistic. It is not just throwing up the buildings and training the staff. Much of the tooling might be specialist and no longer available.
buffnut453
Captain
Well, let's look at the opposition. How ready are non-US NATO forces to defend Europe? How cohesive are they? How deep are their weapons stocks? How much recent combat experience?
Like I said, Russia isn't ready to roll over borders today...but their ability to regenerate forces has been impressive and they will use any cessation in hostilities to regroup. However, they have WAY more experience operating in a jamming environment and leveraging (and defending against) mass UAV attacks than do the European powers.
MiTasol
Captain
There are some who believe that the threat to invade Greenland is a "diplomatic" move to destabilise NATO for Putin's benefit. I cannot agree with them but equally I cannot Disagree with them.
Greenland is part of Denmark which is a founding NATO state.
Article 5 would protect Denmark and Greenland from any Russian invasion but what happens if the US invades? NATO would be fighting NATO and the only winner is Putin.
With friends like that who needs enemies.
Given that Ukraine and every other NATO member is excluded from the piece talks I would not be surprised if those nations are currently quietly building a new, US, Turkey and Bulgaria free, alliance to replace NATO the moment the "resolution" to the Ukraine war is dictated to them.
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Admiral Beez
Major
Tick, tick….Ukrainian president says Trudeau is expected to visit Ukraine on Monday | CBC News
The Prime Minister’s Office says Justin Trudeau spoke with U.S. President Donald Trump on Saturday about the war in Ukraine and Canada’s efforts to combat fentanyl flowing through the Canada-U.S. border.
Just kidding, I have no idea what that's supposed to be about.
Admiral Beez
Major
I'm going to Greenland in July. I'll be sure to wear my maple leaf.
Greg Boeser
1st Lieutenant
In Europe the Greens (another shade of red) have successfully shamed everyone into abandoning nuclear.UK (aprox 225 warheads) and France (around 300 operational nuclear warheads) already have them.
Spain had a nuclear program and the research stage was fully completed before Spain signed the NPT in 1987. It is said Spain could potentially develop a nuke in a very short time.
Project Islero - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Germany and Netherlands are considered threshold states. A nuclear threshold state is the condition of a country possessing all the technology, expertise and infrastructure needed to quickly develop nuclear weapons, without having actually yet done so.
Italy also had a nuclear program, but not sure how advanced they where when it was stopped.
As for the resources, many European countries have nuclear reactors. France in particular has 56 operational and one in construction.
Nuclear power reactors in Europe - Wikipedia
As a result Europe/EU have the resources, the technology, the know-how and the economy to produce a nuclear program rivaling US and China. The only reason there is not yet an Eurobomb is because there was never the political will nor the need to have it. But that seems to be changing rapidly.
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