"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (7 Viewers)

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If you act like a kindergartner you will be addressed as such.

You don't want to be compared to a child, then don't act like one with the He started it first BS….

Are we finished? Or are we going to continue this BS?
 
Looks like Mariupol has been surrendered to Russia.

Mariupol’s Last Defenders Yield, Ending Long Russian Siege

Completing the capture of Mariupol is a long sought victory for Russia, and Ukrainian soldiers are being taken from the Azovstal steel plant to Russian-controlled territory. Kyiv is pushing for a prisoner swap.
www.wsj.com

Moscow set to call referendum on Mariupol joining Russia, says Ukraine

Kremlin poised to hold referendum in ruined city in bid to secure grip on the region
www.theguardian.com

Unless Ukraine can mount a southern offensive to take the city back I'd say it's going to be part of Russia before end of the month.
 
Seems to be, but according to other Ukrainian-western sources "some" fighters are supposedly remaining there.- we will see.
 
Jagdflieger said:
Seems to be, but according to other Ukrainian-western sources "some" fighters are supposedly remaining there.- we will see.
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It's too bad the garrison couldn't have been reinforced, perhaps by sea or air drop. Such a strategic target should have had a stronger force once rumors of the invasion were clear.

Maybe the Ukrainians should seize Belgorod in exchange? It's only up the road from the Ukrainian front lines.

Ukraine accused of deadly cross-border attack on Russian village

If confirmed, it would mark the first time a Russian was killed inside the country by Ukraine shelling since war began.
www.aljazeera.com
 
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Admiral Beez said:
In some cases Hitler was right to challenge his Generals, Franz Halder in particular, who both overtly and covertly broke with Hitler's plans. I wonder if Putin was misled by fearful Generals or if the Generals broke with Putin's plans.
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AFAIK, even including the 80's Afghanistan, Russia has not faced a real war. The "present" general staff has only gathered military experience via more or less civil wars or fighting militias and irregulars.
So the blunder of Russia's army leadership isn't really a surprise.
 
Look everyone. As stated all the way back on page one this is an important but tough topic. We are all not going to agree. We, however, can remain civil (and we have done so for the most part for 324 pages - A big thanks to all of you).

Remember when you disagree with someone, do so in a constructive and civil manner. We all get more out of it that way. Don't attack the poster, attack the message.

We mods will do our best to not take sides (even when we want to). When we ask you to tone it down, please do so and don't push back with a finger pointing tantrum. Not only is it irritating, but its also counterproductive.
 
IMHO, seizing Belgorod would be a bad move. Could be interpreted as an existential thread for Russia and allow for the use of Nukes.

Yesterday night there where unconfirmed reports that Ukrainian forces have crossed the Siverskyi Donets river East of Kharkiv. Haven't seen anything (nor confirming nor debunking) yet today. If true, that means they are going for the supply lines to Izium, which probably makes more sense for Ukraine.

Ukraine update: Someone managed to cross the Siverskyi Donets River, but it's not Russia

The Siverskyi Donets River has already played an outsized role in Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. East of Izyum, Russian forces attempted to cross the river three times with disastrous consequences that kos has documented in detail. In the east,...
www.dailykos.com
 
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On the political front, Russia seems to be toning down the rhetoric about Sweden and Finland joining NATO. Lavrov's comments align with the language Putin was using yesterday. The more aggressive language being used about the US and UK remains a common theme, including allusions to both nations conducting acts of war:

Finland and Sweden joining Nato would probably make "not much difference", according to Russia's foreign minister.

Speaking at a public lecture in Moscow, Sergei Lavrov says both countries "have been participating in Nato military exercises for many years," in remarks quoted by the Ria Novosti news agency.

But he reiterated Moscow's stance that his country's response to Sweden and Finland's decision to apply for membership of the military alliance will depend on what forces Nato deploys on their territory.

Meanwhile Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said countries like the UK and US whose military advisers, he says, "tell armed Ukrainian nationalists what to do, [and] who give them intelligence information," should be considered more than just "unfriendly".

"We put it mildly by calling them unfriendly states. I would now say that these are already hostile states because what they are doing is war," Peskov added.

Russia has an official list of "unfriendly" states, largely consisting of Nato members, as well as non-member countries such as Australia and Japan which have also imposed sanctions on Russia.
 
Jagdflieger said:
I never said that and you know that I do not think that way - so why bring up that statement?
Click to expand...

Probably because you seem pretty busy trying to excuse Putin's invasion of Ukraine by blaming the victim.

Jagdflieger said:
No, that was NOT my topic, but for politicians to choose a smart option to prevent such a scenario - and if it does happens, to posses the realistic means to go in immediately and not to end up as now.
Click to expand...

Even politicians making not-smart decisions doesn't mean that Putin gets to invade Ukraine and claim it to be a legitimate response to political events.

Jagdflieger said:
No you did not - you stated: ....Russia invaded Ukraine before Ukraine abandoned neutrality. This is a fact.
Click to expand...

And it is a fact. Having friendly relations with NATO doesn't violate neutrality, any more than having friendly relations with India or Botswana violates neutrality. Ukraine didn't change its constitution until 2019, FIVE YEARS after Russia invaded. Including that in your laundry list of Russian grievances simply demonstrates my point for everyone to see.
 
Admiral Beez said:
I suggest you stop caring if your questions are answered.
Click to expand...

I'll let you know when I want your advice, thanks in advance.


That's nice, bully for you. When I'm in a disagreement with someone and they don't answer a pointed question, I think it's telling -- and fair to point it out.


Perhaps some of us enjoy a debate? Maybe not everyone shares your outlook of trying to tell others where to post from or how to reply to someone? Gosh, who died and appointed you lecturer-in-chief?
 
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KYIV/NOVOAZOVSK, Ukraine, May 17 (Reuters) - More than 250 Ukrainian fighters surrendered to Russian forces at the Azovstal steelworks in Mariupol and Kyiv said it had ordered its entire garrison to evacuate, heralding the end of Europe's bloodiest battle in decades.

Reuters saw buses leave the steelworks overnight and five of them arrive in the Russian-held town of Novoazovsk, where Moscow said they would be treated for wounds.

In one, marked with the Latin letter 'Z' that has become the symbol of Russia's assault, wounded men were lying on stretchers three bunks high. One man was wheeled out, his head tightly wrapped in thick bandages.

While both sides spoke of a deal under which all Ukrainian troops would abandon the huge steelworks, many details were not yet public, including how many fighters remained inside and whether any form of prisoner swap had been agreed in advance.

Mariupol defenders surrender to Russia but their fate is uncertain

More than 250 Ukrainian fighters surrendered to Russian forces at the Azovstal steelworks in Mariupol after weeks of desperate resistance, bringing an end to the most devastating siege of Russia's war in Ukraine and allowing President Vladimir Putin to claim a rare victory in his faltering campaign.
www.reuters.com

Last night on the way home from work, on BBC, I heard an interview with a Ukrainian minister. She stated that negotiations for a prisoner-swap were underway but not resolved.
 
This blunt assessment of Russia's difficulties in Ukraine is surprising in that it aired on Russian national TV:

LONDON, May 17 (Reuters) - One military analyst had a brutally frank message for viewers of Russian state television: The war in Ukraine will get much worse for Russia, which is facing a mass mobilisation supported by the United States while Russia is almost totally isolated.

[...]

"You should not swallow informational tranquilizers," Mikhail Khodaryonok, a retired colonel, told the "60 Minutes" talk show on Rossiya-1 hosted by Olga Skabeyeva, one of the most pro-Kremlin journalists on television.


"The situation, frankly speaking, will get worse for us," said Khodaryonok, a regular guest on state TV who gives often candid assessments of the situation.

He said that Ukraine could mobilise 1 armed million men.

Khodaryonok, a military columnist for the gazeta.ru newspaper and a graduate of one of Russia's elite military academies, cautioned before the invasion that such a step would not be in Russia's national interests.

[...]

"The desire to defend one's motherland in the sense that it exists in Ukraine - it really does exist there and they intend to fight to the last," Khodaryonok said before he was interrupted by Skabeyeva.

[...]

"The main thing in our business is have a sense of military-political realism: if you go beyond that then the reality of history will hit you so hard that you will not know what hit you," he said.

"Don't wave rockets in the direction of Finland for goodness sake - it just looks rather funny," he said.

Russia, he said, was isolated.

"The main deficiency of our military-political position is that we are in full geopolitical solitude and - however we don't want to admit it - practically the whole world is against us - and we need to get out of this situation."

Ukraine will get worse for isolated Russia, analyst says on state TV

One military analyst had a brutally frank message for viewers of Russian state television: The war in Ukraine will get much worse for Russia, which is facing a mass mobilisation supported by the United States while Russia is almost totally isolated.
www.reuters.com

He'll be logging in Siberia before too long, I bet.
 

BBC just reported that 7 busloads of Azovstal fighters were evacuated this morning. The problem is that they're being taken to Russian-held locations. This leads to the obvious question about how they'll be treated. Again from the BBC:

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov declined to comment on the status of the evacuated troops and did not answer whether the Ukrainian soldiers would be treated as war criminals or as prisoners of war.

"[President Vladimir] Putin has guaranteed that they will be treated in line with the relevant international laws," he said, refusing to provide any further details on what will happen to the evacuated troops.

Speaking in the Russian State Duma (parliament), Speaker Vyacheslav Volodin said those evacuated should not be subject to exchange and should instead be brought to justice.


Unsurprisingly, Russia is again sending mixed-messages with zero specific details. "International laws" is a very broad topic and could be used by the Kremlin to bring these men to trial on some charge or other (e.g. terrorism). Personally, I don't envy their position. I hope they're treated well by their Russian captors...but I'm not holding my breath.

UPDATE: Here's a pic of the bus convoy being escorted by Russian army vehicles:

 
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