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manta22 said:
The output power (ERP= Effective Radiated Power) of an EC-130 is enormous. Moreover it carries a large amount of SIGINT/ELINT equipment and trained operators as a payload. An F-16 has some ECM, but TOGETHER with EC-130 support and a coordinated attack with A-10s, this would be devastating to armor.
Click to expand...
You are of course correct in saying that the EC-130 has considerably more power, but it cannot fly all the time and be in the air every time Ukraine fighters have to fly. There are many reports of Ukraine fighters flying four or more missions a day and of course over any part of the country.

As for the A10. I am afraid that I am in the camp of those who believe that its place on the front line of an intense war such as Ukraine is over. Yes it can inflict serious damage, yes it can survive damage more than any combat aircraft flying, but yes, with the number of effectiveness of modern Stinger type missiles they will take hits.
Those hits will, assuming they get back to base, need significant repair and will be out of action for some time. The A10 would likely be a one or two shot weapon
 
Glider said:
You are of course correct in saying that the EC-130 has considerably more power, but it cannot fly all the time and be in the air every time Ukraine fighters have to fly. There are many reports of Ukraine fighters flying four or more missions a day and of course over any part of the country.

As for the A10. I am afraid that I am in the camp of those who believe that its place on the front line of an intense war such as Ukraine is over. Yes it can inflict serious damage, yes it can survive damage more than any combat aircraft flying, but yes, with the number of effectiveness of modern Stinger type missiles they will take hits.
Those hits will, assuming they get back to base, need significant repair and will be out of action for some time. The A10 would likely be a one or two shot weapon
Click to expand...
I would assume that there would be more than one EC-130 in Ukraine :). As far as infrared-guided missiles such as Stingers, the simple flare decoys have been effective for 70 years or so...
 
Just as a refresher, here is the data on the current A-10C straigjt from the source:

www.af.mil

A-10C Thunderbolt II

The A-10C Thunderbolt II is the first Air Force aircraft specially designed for close air support of ground forces. They are simple, effective and used against light maritime attack aircraft and all
www.af.mil

Take particular note of this part regarding it's defenses:
"...infrared and electronic countermeasures to handle surface-to-air-threats, both missile and anti-aircraft artillery."
 
manta22 said:
I would assume that there would be more than one EC-130 in Ukraine :). As far as infrared-guided missiles such as Stingers, the simple flare decoys have been effective for 70 years or so...
Click to expand...
Taking the points one at a time
a) How many EC-130 would you need to cover all the combat area's 24 hours a day?
b) Plus do you really think the USA would give them over even if they had enough spares to hand over?
c) Its a serious mistake to believe decoy flares will work effectively today. They will work some of the time against certain normally earlier versions but you would be unwise to bet the farm on them. If flares did work as well as you think, then a lot fewer aircraft would have been shot down on both sides.
d) Some SAMS don't rely on either radar lock or infra red. Some don't even rely on warheads or proximity fuses. Yes no doubt some will be decoyed or simply evaded, but some will hit and to pretend otherwise is rash.

Modern example Starstreak Starstreak Anti-Aircraft Guided Missile System
Older example Rapier famously known as a hitile not a missile as it didn't have a proximity fuse. Rapier (missile) - Wikipedia
 
manta22 said:
I would assume that there would be more than one EC-130 in Ukraine :). As far as infrared-guided missiles such as Stingers, the simple flare decoys have been effective for 70 years or so...
Click to expand...

There are no more than 9 Compass Call airframes left in service. A total of 14 were built but, as of Aug 2022, five had been retired. That's a very limited number of airframes to maintain crew qualification and operations. And Ukraine is a big country...even if the US was willing to let the Compass Calls be used (which, frankly, won't happen).

As to "simple flare decoys" being effective for 70 years or so....well, that depends on your definition of "simple." Take a look at this brief article which outlines the various methods IR sensors on missiles use to identify and ignore flare decoys:

Efficient Flare Countermeasures Against Infrared Guided Threats - Joint Aircraft Survivability Program - JASP Online

EFFICIENT FLARE COUNTERMEASURES AGAINST INFRARED GUIDED THREATS By Yeondeog Koo, Unseob Jeong, and Wonseok Choe Portable infrared (IR) guided missiles […]
www.jasp-online.org

Maximising aircraft survivability requires firing multiple bursts for each engagement by IR-seeking missiles. Aircraft can only carry a certain number of flares. Once they're gone, you have zero protection. There's also the problem that the aircrew may not even know that they've been engaged by a missile. Some aircraft have missile approach warning (MAW) systems that can detect the incoming missile...but that's far from a common piece of equipment on all platforms.

Just because an aircraft has some countermeasures to IR (or other) guided missiles does not mean they afford full protection under all circumstances. MANPADs, in particular, are cheap compared to an aircraft...and every aircraft will eventually run out of chaff or flares as countermeasures if it encounters enough threats.
 
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cyYWZhYi5qcGeSlQMAzQEPzQfQzQRllQLNA6wAwsOCoTABoTEB.jpg

chief of staff of ZSU - thursday in Kiev - funeral of one of his soldiers
 
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