"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (25 Viewers)

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Protector UGV with Tavria Combat Module Marks Ukraine’s Shift to Remote Ground Combat

Ukraine’s Protector UGV, now armed with a Tavria-12.7 heavy machine gun module, completes live-fire tests and pushes ground combat further into remote control.
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GTX said:
www.politico.eu

EU countries seek urgent plan B to fund Ukraine

Officials are looking at an EU bridging loan to help Kyiv stay afloat if they can’t agree on using Moscow’s frozen state assets in time.
www.politico.eu www.politico.eu
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I do wonder what Europe could really throw at defence at home and with Ukraine if they wanted. For example, in 1985 at the height of the Cold War, West Germany and the UK spent 6% and 5% of total government expenditures on defence respectively, compared to about 2.5% today.
 
Admiral Beez said:
I do wonder what Europe could really throw at defence at home and with Ukraine if they wanted. For example, in 1985 at the height of the Cold War, West Germany and the UK spent 6% and 5% of total government expenditures on defence respectively, compared to about 2.5% today.
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A major component in any discussion along these lines has to be the ratio of defense expenditures against GDP, and the sustainability of those outlays.
 
Admiral Beez said:
I do wonder what Europe could really throw at defence at home and with Ukraine if they wanted. For example, in 1985 at the height of the Cold War, West Germany and the UK spent 6% and 5% of total government expenditures on defence respectively, compared to about 2.5% today.
Click to expand...
Collectively, Europe could throw a lot, especially when one considers how well (or otherwise) Russia's military has performed in Ukraine and how much capability (troops and equipment) the Russians have gone through.

In fact, as a thought exercise, let's suppose that key (not necessarily all) European countries decided to get involved directly in Ukraine. They could do this also without declaring war on Russia but as a "Protection/Peace keeping" force to protect their own assets/humanitarian people. What might this look like?

Using only those forces from Poland, Germany, France, Sweden, Finland, Italy, Spain, Great Britain, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark & Norway and only those systems/troops currently reported in service, and assuming they only deploy ~5% of their active forces, one might get something like the following:

Land contingent: ~33,000 troops, 122 MBTs, 25 Tank Destroyers, 1515 APCs/IFVs, 58 SPHs, 13 SPMs, 47 towed Howitzers, 20 MLRS, 54 AA Guns, 22 SAM systems
Air Contingent: 58 troop helicopters, 16 attack helicopters, 8 heavy transport helicopters, 82 fighters, 16 dedicated attack/SEAD aircraft

Quite a potent force and one that would make Russia think twice. Now obviously, I have just done a simple calculation here. In reality complete units would be sent and there might be some trading between nations ("hey, if I send tanks will you send SPHs or helicopters etc...")

Note also that I have left our any naval component though one might reasonably expect a deployment such as this to include ships etc in the Black Sea to protect sea lanes. And despite Turkey's opposition )assuming they weren't an active part of this), I am certain they would be allowed in.

As for the concerns about Russia resorting to nuclear weapons here, I don't believe that is a real threat. The power of nukes lies in their deterrence effect not actual use. If Putin was to use nukes he would know it would mean the end of him and his regime full stop.
 
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Admiral Beez said:
I do wonder what Europe could really throw at defence at home and with Ukraine if they wanted. For example, in 1985 at the height of the Cold War, West Germany and the UK spent 6% and 5% of total government expenditures on defence respectively, compared to about 2.5% today.
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In it's current state, Russia would not be able to put up much of a fight.

Ukraine has severely bled Russia of manpower and equipment.

If any European nations were to join Ukraine in an offensive, Russia would be immediately on their back foot.

The incoming forces would not only have fresh, well trained manpower, but top of the line equipment and fresh Intel on Russian tactics.

And don't think for a moment that China has not been watching Russia bleeding out, too.
 
Thumpalumpacus said:
A major component in any discussion along these lines has to be the ratio of defense expenditures against GDP, and the sustainability of those outlays.
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GDP can be gamed. That's why I'm instead looking at total government expenditure. For example, GDP doesn't include a nation's ability or willingness to assume debt during times of crisis.
 
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