"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (46 Viewers)
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Leonardo Sees Michelangelo Dome Trials In Ukraine | Aviation Week Network
Leonardo plans to demonstrate elements of its new Michelangelo Dome in Ukraine this year, as it sets sights on networking air and missile defenses Europe-wide.
aviationweek.com
drgondog
Major
You Don't Get What I Said.
I KNOW THAT THE BOMBS WERE ONLY TWO OF SEVERAL AND SEPARATE FACTORS - but they were THE deciding Factor. They were the single factor, however which enabled the Japanese to Surrender with a vestige of honor rather than bring on what they perceived to be an honorable death for themselves and possible extinction event for their race.
I replied, and believed correctly, that WWII WAS ended by airpower delivering two nuclear weapons, and further that the specter of extinction perceived by Hirohito due to a campaign of nuclear weapons- was far greater than napalm from the air and troops on the ground.
You may rest secure in your belief system that Hiroshima/Nagasaki were not the deciding factors based on your opinions of Toland and Frank's works. The only case you can make is the parallel universe in which Hirohito decided to agree his general staff and continue on after August 14th.
The controlling factors were the two bombs. A decision to fight on Guaranteed that the Soviets would invade and the Allies would invade and that perhaps casualties would rival the Eastern Front with All of Japan over run.
Make your case.
drgondog
Major
Do you really think that had we or UK possessed nuclear weapons, that a.) we would not have used them or b.) Germany would not have capitulated when confronted with potential of near extinction? Without further ground campaign?
I'm curious. Who is 'the world'? Russia/China teaming up with EU/rest of NATO? The only force to enforce restraint would be if Republicans and Democrats joined in an impeachment with enough GOP to attain 2/3 in the Senate.
Iran will not close the shipping lanes for two weeks. China's economy is far weaker than US. EU economy is far weaker. Both are in severe conditions due to lack of cheap energy. Russia can save EU if shipping is stopped. You think that the EU will turn to Russia in order to confront US?
If Iran can deliver dirty bombs they will. They haven't been chanting Death to America for 47 years because it has a nice ring to it.
North Vietnam didn't fold and Hanoi didn't glow in the dark.
North Korea continued to exist because Truman wouldn't authorize hammering China when they crossed the Yalu and attacked us. North Korea was done when we got to the Yalu and ready to fold back south. Will you argue that opening up the Korean campaign to use nuclear weapons delivered by air would not have resulted in stopping hostilities without ground invasion being further necessary?
I have no problem agreeing that N.Vietnam should not have been nuked, but less agreeable regarding China PLA nuked with threat to escalate to Bejing if they didn't retreat.
My problem in this debate with both of you is the disagreement whether wars can/can not be won solely by air delivery of nuclear weapons. Even if all soldiers involved were not hampered much locally, there would neither be logistics, manufacturing, distribution or even sufficient food to support ground troops. It works both ways but that is why MAD worked for nigh on 7o years
Thumpalumpacus
Colonel
Please link to the post where I wrote this. Otherwise, you are making a strawman of my position. They were the final and deciding factors -- but without the ground-forces, and more pointedly without the submarine blockades, those bombs would not, in a vacuum, have compelled Japanese surrender by themselves, and we can reason to that point given their refusal to surrender after Hiroshima -- or for that matter after the loss of the Marianas, when most Japanese leadership understood that the war was certainly lost and started thinking about ways they could end it honorably.
I won't dignify this horseshit with a response.
As I've said above, the bombs were the final straws. But pretending that air-power won that theater by itself is ridiculously overegging your pudding. Ground forces were needed, and so too were naval forces, your incorrect claim aside.
MiTasol
Major
I think this Australian ABC story sums it up quite well but I would rather that people kept the two wars separate.
Iran is increasingly controlling the direction of this war
If there ever was a strategy behind Donald Trump's decision to blow up the Middle East, it is lying in tatters as the second week of the Iran war draws to a close.
www.abc.net.au
MiTasol
Major
The US has a history of claiming WMD as an excuse for war and then finding none. Even more important, until around 10 years ago the highlighted condition existed and every government agreed with its scientists and said Iran was compliant then ONE MAN ignored the scientists and blew that all away and created the situation that exists today.
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MiTasol
Major
Especially because in the opening hours of this war the US and Israel broke dozens, if not hundreds, of international laws. The longer this drags on and the more that hydrocarbon shortages bite other countries the more likely it is that other nations are going to start sanctioning the two aggressors. Don't say that will never happen because that was exactly what Russia thought 4+ years ago. Governments who are under extreme internal pressure to solve their energy crisis will lose their fear of the bullies and do what they have to.
I consider it very unlikely that Iran will use dirty bombs because at present they are in the same place as Ukraine - the victims of aggression by a superpower who has no hesitation in murdering civilians (and then stupidly claiming Iran used a Tomahawk missile in their own inventory to do the killing). America lost the propaganda war in many countries through that one single blatant lie.
They lost it even further with today's claim that the new Iranian leader is incapable of ruling because he is disfigured. That is insulting to every disfigured person from this man down and to everyone else who is intelligent enough not to equate looks with intelligence.
For Iran to use a dirty bomb would instantly reverse public sentiment in most countries and turn them in to a pariah.
And remember who actually won that war. The US fled the battle zone.
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Glider
Major
The point I was trying to make is that the damage inflicted on Iran is but a fraction of the damage inflicted on Germany, Japan and Vietnam and in order Germany didn't surrender until troops were on the ground, Japan didn't surrender until they were starving and under fire from Atomic bombs, Vietnam didn't surrender at all.
Your second different point is that I don't think that the USA or UK would have nuked Germany. Its too close to home, but this is irrelevant. To assume that Iran will surrender because of the air war is I believe optimistic, but I really hope that I am wrong.
Economically the world is intertwined to an extraordinary degree and no country, not even the USA can stand alone. It may think it can, but it cannot. What happened to the UK and France when they took the Suez Canal may well happen to the USA.
Who is going to stop Iran closing the shipping lanes for Two months, its approaching two weeks and I see nothing changing. Russia re doing well out of the crisis so they won't. China is too far away and doesn't have the resources in place, so they won't. The EU and UK are against the whole war and will not assist in clearing the lanes, which leaves the USA who initiated the who debacle in the first place and have so it seems, no plans in place re what to do about clearing the lanes or escorting the shipping.
Again I hope that I am wrong but I don't see much either in place or progress in clearing the shipping lanes.
MiTasol
Major
We heard that claim a year ago then a very loud silence.
Hopefully this time the story is true.
Paywall free https://archive.md/wip/vvGmz
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MiTasol
Major
You have been listening to way too much propaganda.
When the US administration was crowing that the US stock market had risen about 16% many other nations stock markets had risen by well over double that. In fact the average for the rest of the world was 38% for the exact same time period and the US stock market was number 21 of the 23 nations which use the same economic modeling. The main reason for this is that investors put their money in places where the government and markets are stable. This administrations on again off again, up again down again, etc, tariffs and regulations and disruptions to the public service etc are driving investors to countries where the economic conditions and governments are stable. You know - all those that are being beaten on by this administration. Notice also where Aus and NZ are on the chart - both are massively sucking up to the US.
View: https://youtu.be/QYL5DslMZEE
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Warspite63
Staff Sergeant
- 1,112
- Dec 8, 2022
Oh yeah ... but that was last week....But didn't Medvedev already threaten the UK with "dire consequences", "potential retaliation" and a thinly veiled mention of a nuclear strike already?
MiTasol
Major
If you go through non US newspapers covering the weeks before the bombs were dropped you will find items on how Japan was seeking peace on the sole condition that the Emperor was spared.
After the bombs were dropped Japan made an unconditional surrender and got exactly what it had asked for before the bombs were dropped.
There is a case that some make that the only difference the bombs made was to prolong the war until they were used forcing the Japanese to go unconditional.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Ah yes, quite right.Oh yeah ... but that was last week....
Besides, my liver made me stop the nuclear threat drinking game
Thumpalumpacus
Colonel
Such proposals were debated in the higher echelons of the American government at least a couple of weeks before the first bomb was dropped. Another datum showing that surrender was on the tracks before the two cities were incinerated.
RogerdeLluria
Staff Sergeant
- 1,409
- Jul 5, 2015
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,306
- Jun 25, 2013
According to my Google translation:
"Ibrahim Azizi, chairman of the parliament's national security commission, wrote on Channel X: "Ukraine's action in helping Israel with drone support makes all of Ukraine's territory, citing the UN Charter, a legitimate and legitimate target for the Islamic Republic."".
www.iranintl.com
"Ibrahim Azizi, chairman of the parliament's national security commission, wrote on Channel X: "Ukraine's action in helping Israel with drone support makes all of Ukraine's territory, citing the UN Charter, a legitimate and legitimate target for the Islamic Republic."".
رییس کمیسیون امنیت ملی مجلس: اوکراین با کمک به اسرائیل به هدف مشروع ما تبدیل خواهد شد
ابراهیم عزیزی، رییس کمیسیون امنیت ملی مجلس در شبکه ایکس نوشت: «اقدام اوکراین در کمک به اسرائیل با حمایتهای پهپادی، تمام خاک اوکراین را با استناد بر منشور ملل متحد، به هدفی مشروع و قانونی برای جمهوری اسلامی تبدیل میکند.»
