Allied Aircraft to forstall Japanese early Success in Far Eastern campaign, 1941-1942

[Vincenzo]

No contest-the F4F3 and the record proves it. It's only problem was that there were not enough of them.

actually of none there were enough, this thread question as i understood is a what if

 

[Juha]

But did the Grumman have as much potential production capacity as Curtiss or in matter of fact Brewster. If RAF had been so clever that it had seen that it wasn't a good idea to overburden small wing Brewster B-x39 planes too much with in itself useful equipments and had ordered something like the FAF B-239 (back armour but not self-sealing fuel tanks) but with a bit more powerful engine it would have had more lively but also more vulnerable plane with good range.

Juha

 

[oldcrowcv63]

actually of none there were enough, this thread question as i understood is a what if

Yep what if there had been enough... "realistic option" in the sense of what might have been the most nearly possible

But did the Grumman have as much potential production capacity as Curtiss or in matter of fact Brewster. If RAF had been so clever that it had seen that it wasn't a good idea to overburden small wing Brewster B-x39 planes too much with in itself useful equipments and had ordered something like the FAF B-239 (back armour but not self-sealing fuel tanks) but with a bit more powerful engine it would have had more lively but also more vulnerable plane with good range.Juha

I believe Grumman could and did out produce Brewster. Brewster had some really serious production limitations based on an almost weirdly complex factory floor plan as I understand it, from reading of Fall from Grace The Brewster aeronautical Corporation: 1932-1942. by Jim Maas.

 

[Juha]

I believe Grumman could and did out produce Brewster. Brewster had some really serious production limitations based on an almost weirdly complex factory floor plan as I understand it, from reading of Fall from Grace The Brewster aeronautical Corporation: 1932-1942. by Jim Maas.

What I meant to say, Brewster probably had more free capacity than Grumman after USN chose F4F-3 as their main fighter. I'm well aware on Brewstwr's quality problems and problems with trade unions at their new plant, the trade union leader should have been happy thet he was not living in SU there with same kind of behaviour he would have been shot out of hand.

Juha

 

[oldcrowcv63]

What I meant to say, Brewster probably had more free capacity than Grumman after USN chose F4F-3 as their main fighter. I'm well aware on Brewstwr's quality problems and problems with trade unions at their new plant, the trade union leader should have been happy thet he was not living in SU there with same kind of behaviour he would have been shot out of hand. Juha

Yes, labor was yet another problem (It's been years since I read Maas' paper!) I don't know the situation wrt to unused capacity post 1939 and just assumed Brewster management couldn't get their act together to pump out large volumes of airframes, but it does seem to have done fairly well in its export production so maybe it could have done it. Yes, wrt to someone at Brewster, the SU approach might have yeilded better results!

 

[buffnut453]

No contest-the F4F3 and the record proves it.

Care to expand a little more on that?

 

[oldcrowcv63]

While I would have liked to see the F4F-3 with USN Pilots flying in this scenario based on their solid performance some 5-6 months later. The F4F-3 had a higher ceiing than the P-40E and with 2 fewer .50 cal guns might have enjoyed a better maintenance record than that compiled by the P-40E after hostilities began. (many of the P-40E guns apparently did not have the cosmoline entirely boiled out of them before combat leading to what appears to be a ridicously high jamming rate.

I believe a more realistic contender would be any of the P-40 models up to and including the P-40D, including export Tomahawks. I am assuming all possessed lighter weight armament and would therefore have enjoyed a higher ceiling and slight better climb rate. I believe there were about 1,750 total produced of all these earlier models, most for export.

 

[stug3]

F4F mainly because it was a carrier fighter and US carriers did more to "forstall early Japanese success" than any other Allied force.

 

[davebender]

Performance equal or superior to most Japanese aircraft during 1942.
Decent range / endurance. Very important in the Pacific.
Operates well from rough airfields.
Few bad flying habits. Important for inexperienced pilots.
One of the most capable fighter-bombers available during 1942.
Available in almost unlimited numbers from 1941 onward.

We built about as many P-40s during 1942 as the entire Japanese fighter aircraft production (IJA and IJN). Since most Japanese military forces (including aircraft) were in China there is no good reason for P-40s to be outnumbered in the Pacific. Add B-25 medium bombers and you've got a winning aerial combination for the war against Japan.

 

[stug3]

Publicity shot of Grumman F4F-3 Wildcat fighters, of Fighting Squadron Three (VF-3) in flight near Naval Air Station, Kaneohe, Oahu, Hawaii, 10 April 1942. The planes are Bureau # 3976 (F-1, foreground), flown by VF-3 Commanding Officer Lieutenant Commander John S. Thach, and Bureau # 3986 (F-13), flown by Lieutenant Edward H. O'Hare. Both of these aircraft were lost a little less than a month later with USS Lexington (CV-2), during the Battle of Coral Sea.

Mitsubishi G4M "Betty" bomber plunges towards the water after being shot down during an engagement with U.S. Navy F4F-3 Wildcats from Fighting Squadron VF-3 defending the aircraft carrier USS Lexington (CV-2) off Rabaul, New Britain, 20 February 1942.

 

[Capt. Vick]

It didn't matter what they had if they were going to miss use them. I wonder if even P-51D's wouldn't have given enough of a advantage to make up for the debacle of the first few days of the war.

Definately agree!

 

[buffnut453]

Me too. It didn't really matter what aircraft was flown. The type of aircraft is rather secondary if the rest of the fighter defence capability is not improved considerably, including adequate early warning, robust ground-controlled intercept organization, reliable weapons (which, IMHO, takes the redoubtable .50 cal out of the running 'cos it was a pig in Dec 41 in all its installations), well-trained personnel, adequate airfield defence (passive and active), aggressive and agile decision-making by commanders and sufficient numbers of aircraft to perform the varied roles assigned to fighter aircraft.

 

[Vincenzo]

Performance equal or superior to most Japanese aircraft during 1942.
Decent range / endurance. Very important in the Pacific.
Operates well from rough airfields.
Few bad flying habits. Important for inexperienced pilots.
One of the most capable fighter-bombers available during 1942.
Available in almost unlimited numbers from 1941 onward.

We built about as many P-40s during 1942 as the entire Japanese fighter aircraft production (IJA and IJN). Since most Japanese military forces (including aircraft) were in China there is no good reason for P-40s to be outnumbered in the Pacific. Add B-25 medium bombers and you've got a winning aerial combination for the war against Japan.

what are the evidence for the first and last point?

 

[parsifal]

I voted for the P-40, but it certainly was not "available in vrtually unlimited numbers" in 1942, and "its performance was equal to or superior to any Japoanese a/c" another highly questionable statement. It was rugged, heavily armed, and prety fast, but in other areas the japanese a/c had it all over the P-40. A more correct statement might be to say that it was a survivable design, with some multi role capability, and well suited to the skill levels available to allied pilots in 1942. It was enough to absorb the shocks of the Japanese onslaught, but lets not get to telling porkies about its capabilities.

 

[merlin]

I'll go for something totally different!!

DEI - has a combination of early Fokker D.XXI, the later improved design with Hercules and retractable undercart, and Koolhoven F. K.58, though it's likely with home produced aircraft available just like OTL, there would have been orders to the USA!

RAAF - Aussie built version of the Gloster F.5/34 (with US engine), handled well good all-round vision.

RAF - Combination of Gloster aircraft, and Hurricane - though in Malaya, as others have said it's not the aircraft that counts its the early warning of any 'raids'.

RIAF - just to make it interesting, seems plausible, to have early expansion of Indian Air Force component, maybe not in Malaya but transfered as emergency back-up in Burma - Gloster Gladiator Gloster monoplane.

 

[gjs238]

Finnish mercenaries flying the Curtiss Hawk Model 75!

Or Finnish mercenaries flying the Seversky P-35.
Or Finnish mercenaries flying any model of the P-40.
Heck, Finnish mercenaries flying Wright Flyers!

 

[cherry blossom]

German mercenaries flying the Fw 190A2 and/or the Bf 109F4 (more fragile but a more reliable engine and better at high altitude)?

 

[stug3]

Flying Tigers P-40 undergoing maintenance at the American Volunteer Group base near Kunming, China.

 

[drgondog]

Mustang I's operational late April/early May in 1942 were superior in every respect to all the USAAF aircraft, inferior to Spit V, superior to F4F except in turning and performance above 25K.

 

[tomo pauk]

Weren't the P-38F better overall than Mustang I?