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When the P-38 was developed, it's primary goal was to meet the AAC Circular Proposal X-608. Producibility seemed to take a back seat as no one ever thought that more than 75 units would ever be produced, there were many design changes to make the P-38 an aircraft that can be massed produced.
AFAIK - one. It was after the XP-38 was built (and destroyed) where the AAF ordered additional aircraft, I think the first buy were for 13 aircraft. After that another 60+ were ordered. Talking to many of the folks who were working at Lockheed during the late 1930s, it seems these initial aircraft were just about hand built.Do we know how many fighters (per X-608 spec) the AAC was supposed to buy by the time XP-38 won the contract?
I'd agree with that. I was told that "little people" were sought as assemblers to put the tail together as they were able to fit inside the aft tail booms. I don't know how true this is but I was told some of these folks were previously employed by MGM (located about 20 miles south of Burbank) during the filming of "The Wizard of Oz"! The P-38 was not an easy aircraft to build!As a general comment, one historical alternative would be for the design to be developed with a greater efficiency in construction in mind. I've come across the assessment that the P-38 was an inefficient aircraft to produce and difficult to upgrade.
AFAIK - one. It was after the XP-38 was built (and destroyed) where the AAF ordered additional aircraft, I think the first buy were for 13 aircraft. After that another 60+ were ordered. Talking to many of the folks who were working at Lockheed during the late 1930s, it seems these initial aircraft were just about hand built.
I'd agree with that. I was told that "little people" were sought as assemblers to put the tail together as they were able to fit inside the aft tail booms. I don't know how true this is but I was told some of these folks were previously employed by MGM (located about 20 miles south of Burbank) during the filming of "The Wizard of Oz"! The P-38 was not an easy aircraft to build!
Yep - and there was a lot of scrambling and building of facilities as Lockheed had Hudson production going on as well as other programs coming down the pipe.The 13 examples were the YP-38 aircraft (May 1939), and then 66 as the P-38 (August 1939), at least by reading the AHT, pg. 146.
February 1940 sees the start of 1st YP-38, March is when British and French give their order (non-turbo version), June is when British order for version with turbos is aprooved by the US government. August: another 607 of P-38s ordered by the USAAC.
September: 1st YP-38 takes flight.
All told, Lockheed has ~1400 of P-38s on order before YP-38 flies.
If there was a way to stuff the turbo charger system into the nacellesHmm - dispense with the twin-boom idea, go as a 'classic' twin instead?
Yep - and IMO it's not surprising. A lot of that 'could have' been Lockheed gearing up for full production and incorporating design changes that made the aircraft "produce-able."D@mn, it took Lockheed 16 months between the contract for YP-38s and the 1st flight of one such A/C.
Yep - and IMO it's not surprising. A lot of that 'could have' been Lockheed gearing up for full production and incorporating design changes that made the aircraft "produce-able."
Yes - remember this was not a time when time was of the essence and any design changes had to go through somewhat of a bureaucratic process. This got streamlined as the US entered the war.Full production for 75 P-38s?
Yes - remember this was not a time when time was of the essence and any design changes had to go through somewhat of a bureaucratic process. This got streamlined as the US entered the war.
You also had to build tooling and more importantly facilities to make this happen.
And they had the people and resources to accomplish this. (see below)It took Boeing to fly the Model 299 (future B-17) less than 12 months. No sight of war in 1935.
That's your opinion - having worked with some of the people who where there during this period, there was a lot of bureaucracy before things got rolling. 2 things you fail to recognize -IMO Lockheed wasted a lot of time to bring the YP-38 in life, with repercussions for the whole P-38 program.
That's your opinion - having worked with some of the people who where there during this period, there was a lot of bureaucracy before things got rolling. 2 things you fail to recognize -
1. Lockheed did not go ahead with any production, modifications or deliveries unless they were awarded a contract.
2. Delays had to be approved by the government, if they were not Lockheed was penalized and money was withheld. If the government induced the delay because of a design change, it's on the government.
You don't go into wide scale production on an aircraft unless you have someone to buy them!
In the middle of this an aeronautical phenomena was encountered for the first time that basically changed aviation history - compressibility.
In contrast the Air Corps ordered 13 YB-17s 17 January 1936 - Between 1 March and 4 August 1937, 12 of the 13 YB-17s were delivered. Boeing had the facilities, tooling and people in place to make this happen. Oh - and the B-17 never encountered "compressibility."
Well like it or not, that was the way it worked and in many respects it's still the same way. You just don't start pumping out aircraft at the snap of one's fingers, especially something state of the art and with the main customer requiring changes along the way. BUT look at the P-38 delivery numbers once the design was basically frozen and full scale production began. This is from the Christy and Ethell book "P-38 Lightning at War"They were awarded with contract (several of them, next one bigger than the preceding one)before the production started.
Blaming it on bureaucracy gets old after a while - applies on the whole world.
$$$ in hand!!! Oh - and people and facilities. And what about contracted production rates??? (See below)1400+- on order before Spetember of 1940 - if that is not enough of an impetus for a wide scale production, then what is?
During the mid-late 1930s Lockheed was not a big company, things started to change when they got for first large orders for the Hudson. At the end of 1937, the company employed fewer than 2,000 people and had produced only a few hundred planes during its entire corporate lifetime. On March 31, 1940, its workforce stood at about 7,000 employees. By June 1943, that number had exploded to nearly 35,000. By 1945 90,000 people worked for Lockheed, most of them at the Burbank facility.As Lockheed, Boeing delivered the aircraft ordered. Lockheed was not a newby in aircraft design, construction and production.
Exactly - and to support that you have to incorporate design changes, build production tooling, have all that approved, build the aircraft almost by hand and get it ready for test flight. Considering the time period and other government commitments Lockheed had, I see no foot dragging here.The YP-38 1st needed to be produced, then flight-tested, and then the compressibility is a thing. Not before all of that.